Andretti F1 - 2025

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Colton Herta will be 27/28 years old and that's who Andretti wants to put in that seat. Right, wrong, or indifferent, will that be too late for him? Does it matter?

like most, im not really happy with how any of this has played out, but if Andretti really had enough money to adequately fund an F1 program then would they not be running some sort of private testing program for Herta or any of their perspective drivers a la what was run (or rumoured to have been done) for Stroll and probably a few others?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

like most, im not really happy with how any of this has played out, but if Andretti really had enough money to adequately fund an F1 program then would they not be running some sort of private testing program for Herta or any of their perspective drivers a la what was run (or rumoured to have been done) for Stroll and probably a few others?

I suppose having access to a suitable (out of date) car could be a problem...

[Richard C]

A few thoughts...

1. Looking back at Stroll, he was working a plan to get enough FIA superlicense points for F1. I think someone like Herta is focused on Indycar performance vs. it as a stepping stone to F1. The distinction I think is in the singular focus of one vs. the other and how hard it might be for Andretti to replicate that with a driver who is focused elsewhere. And as VIVA GT mentions, a lot of this was eventually farmed out to Williams (time in an older car with coaching).

2. Stroll was effectively funded by his Dad. So it's not like Lance was going to go somewhere else when it was done. He was going to ride along wherever his Dad was able to take him. For Andretti, it might not be that easy. Andretti might be hesitant to fund development of someone for an F1 program that might not come about. Plus, doing so would require putting them under contract for a potential (and frankly unlikely) entry in four years? That seems pricy. Unless you are bringing up a younger talent for cheap, but as other driver development programs have shown, that is not easy or any guarantee for success.

3. While Andretti has lined up funding for his F1 bid, I expect the depth of his pockets is not bottomless. A driver development program might be cheap in some ways, but all of this "prep work" adds up. It is just burning money with lots of risk (i.e. nothing coming of any of it)

4. While it might seem shortsighted, I expect Andretti was (and is) mostly focused on just getting the entry established. Maybe if that had worked out they could pivot toward things like fully building out a team (infrastructure, staffing, etc.) and also then working on improving potential driver talent (driver development program).

Richard

[veeten]

Not to mention, while Mario did what he did to get Michael in McLaren, Michael chose not to do so with Marco. There are many examples of former champions and other drivers helping their sons into Formula 1... or in the case of Jacques Villeneuve, those that were connected with his uncle Gilles. Several examples of drivers that were moved past the 'ladder' because it was believed that they were exceptional talent.

The bit with Lance Stroll was that his father Lawrence was willing to practically buy an existing manufacturer, along with an existing team, to expedite his son's capabilities.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

A few thoughts...

but surely those are all risks one must take in order to be regarded as a viable entry in these current times.

while pockets cant be bottomless, they do need to be sufficiently deep.

or to put it a different way, given what little we can glean out of the not so transparent selection process, how much do we think is necessary to start and run an f1 going forward?

200-600m for the franchise fee.
200m to build a facility (i believe thats how much Andretti said they would be spending on their new facility).
over 1 billion to develop your own engine (i think i recall Merc suggesting thats what it cost them in the previous hybrid era).
add a couple years worth of budget just to build a car from scratch so call that 200m.
plus all the other costs i dont know enough about to factor in.

again, who knows about these numbers but 1-2billion is perhaps whats needed just for start up costs???

and while thats a crazy amount and one probably so large as to only attract the annoying or criminally rich, thats perhaps where FOM is looking to set the bar for new entrants....plus have a full manu partner.

so for arguments sake, lets say im in the ballpark with the numbers, then is spending 100m (5% of 2b) on driver preparations (80m is what Stroll is reportedly spent) a risk or more of a necessity? more so if your mission is to bring in drivers outside of the normal F1 pathways?

anyways, this whole thing is crazy and why anyone would spend that kind of money to basically run a team at the bottom and in all likelihood be out of the sport sometime within a decade adds to the absurdity of all of this.

but then again, thats the game they are trying to get into so their pockets better be plenty deep!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but surely those are all risks one must take in order to be regarded as a viable entry in these current times.

I think the Lance Stroll situation is a good example of spending money to get someone up to speed. But was the cost justified or expected of any team? I think not, and should not be emulated by any team that is spending sponsorship money. Project "Lance" was/is a Stroll family vanity project. Not that I would turn down the money if my parents were wealthy and able to do the same for me!

As to a driver development program, I think that can be viewed as a later step in the maturity curve of an F1 team. It wouldn't be the first or fifth, but may tenth or fifteenth priority. So, no, I don't see this as something someone like Andretti should be devoting significant resources to at this time, or even right after they might get an entry. Yes, they have to worry about where they find drivers, but don't we say there are plenty of potential drivers and not enough open seats? Focus on getting through the first season and then worry about building a driver pipeline.

Richard

[chillibowl]

more than a fair assessment...but cant help but feel that for an overtly branded American team to do well it will need more than a famous name connected to motorsports and a major US manu, its going to need a star driver, preferably an American one.

for sure not the most important thing on their to do list at the moment but thats not to say that success for this new project may ultimately depend on the American driver they choose?

actually think there may be an opportunity here for Andretti and FOM to genuinely build on something here together...given FOM's desire to better monetize America im actually perplexed that they arent looking at Andretti as exactly the right opportunity to make that happen.

rather, its hard to imagine there being a better opportunity for FOM to capture this American market then by working with and fully aiding the Andretti proposal. honestly cant even imagine a potential new entrant that would work better for them in this endeavour to make as much out of F1 as possible!

anyways, im a bit all over the place with this line of thought but i suppose my issue stems from an overall level of frustration against all parties involved. as a total outsider opinion with no inside knowledge, it just feels like none of them seem to be doing enough to make this happen!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

more than a fair assessment...but cant help but feel that for an overtly branded American team to do well it will need more than a famous name connected to motorsports and a major US manu, its going to need a star driver, preferably an American one.

for sure not the most important thing on their to do list at the moment but thats not to say that success for this new project may ultimately depend on the American driver they choose?

actually think there may be an opportunity here for Andretti and FOM to genuinely build on something here together...given FOM's desire to better monetize America im actually perplexed that they arent looking at Andretti as exactly the right opportunity to make that happen.

rather, its hard to imagine there being a better opportunity for FOM to capture this American market then by working with and fully aiding the Andretti proposal. honestly cant even imagine a potential new entrant that would work better for them in this endeavour to make as much out of F1 as possible!

anyways, im a bit all over the place with this line of thought but i suppose my issue stems from an overall level of frustration against all parties involved. as a total outsider opinion with no inside knowledge, it just feels like none of them seem to be doing enough to make this happen!

I think you're right, I don't think there will be a better opportunity. I feel that come 2028 the hype and excitement, that currently surrounds F1 in the US, will have diminished.

[Mike Harte]

I must admit that if I was in the shoes of either Andretti or GM, then I would be inclined to just tell FOM and the teams that they can keep F1; it's just not worth the hassle or the expense of meeting their ridiculous demands. Especially as there is no guarantee that that they would be accepted for the 2028 season.

I would actually be inclined to tell them that they could shove the invitation, to apply for a place on the grid, where the sun doesn't shine.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I must admit that if I was in the shoes of either Andretti or GM, then I would be inclined to just tell FOM and the teams that they can keep F1; it's just not worth the hassle or the expense of meeting their ridiculous demands. Especially as there is no guarantee that that they would be accepted for the 2028 season.

I would actually be inclined to tell them that they could shove the invitation, to apply for a place on the grid, where the sun doesn't shine.

I would not be surprised if after all efforts fail to rescue a 2026 entry fails that they will. And it will be the response from GM that will hurt the most. I hope they do it.

Richard

[veeten]

Especially with what's going on with WEC/IMSA, more manufacturers are involved there than F1 presently. The sport is becoming way too corporate for the likes of many sports fans, and if this goes belly up, then it will be a most embarrassing situation that no amount of press/social media "fixing" will change.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by veeten

Not to mention, while Mario did what he did to get Michael in McLaren, Michael chose not to do so with Marco. There are many examples of former champions and other drivers helping their sons into Formula 1... or in the case of Jacques Villeneuve, those that were connected with his uncle Gilles. Several examples of drivers that were moved past the 'ladder' because it was believed that they were exceptional talent.

The bit with Lance Stroll was that his father Lawrence was willing to practically buy an existing manufacturer, along with an existing team, to expedite his son's capabilities.

Don't overlook the potential that he had as aF3 driver.
He was able to go head-to-head with people many would regard as far better f1 drivers and beat them.

So what is the problem now?
It is not a problem. Getting pole in Turkey a few years ago in the wet is just a glimpse of the potential within Lance.
Being well off and well-funded can be a curse when you're driving for dad.
Simply a lack of focus, sharpness, motivation et al.

Just remember all of your F1 drivers had to fight their way up, including Lance.
There is very little in pure speed between any of them.
The differences are in sharpness, hunger, desire, and motivation.

Their machinery may vary according to what they can get, but the available speed is much closer.

It is the application of their talent that enables one driver to rise above others.
Yes, they need a good car.
In 2023 Max had a good car and cleaned the field. Hamilton did not have the second-best car but finished second without winning a race.

Sainz and Perez won races but had other issues.
Leclerc had more front row starts than anyone except Max but never won a race.

How many of Strolls critics could have amassed what he already accomplished in his career and the people he beat lower down?
None of them.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by veeten

Especially with what's going on with WEC/IMSA, more manufacturers are involved there than F1 presently. The sport is becoming way too corporate for the likes of many sports fans, and if this goes belly up, then it will be a most embarrassing situation that no amount of press/social media "fixing" will change.

The racing is better in IMSA/WEC for sure

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Don't overlook the potential that he had as aF3 driver.
He was able to go head-to-head with people many would regard as far better f1 drivers and beat them.

Let's not rewrite history. He bought the leading team. His car was in the Williams tunnel more than their F1 car. His teammates didn't get the upgrades. His teammates had contracts that said they couldn't race him.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Let's not rewrite history. He bought the leading team. His car was in the Williams tunnel more than their F1 car. His teammates didn't get the upgrades. His teammates had contracts that said they couldn't race him.

No one is rewriting history, just looking at the results.
They are his history.
Junior formula a re littered with people who had the best of this that and the next thing.
Dont tell me that Lewis or Leclerc, Sainz, Lando or George struggled through their lower formulae and with second rate equipment and opportunity.

When people single out individuals because they had rich parents all it means is they had the best equipment possible.

They may have, but the end of a season is simply on the results, what they did with what they had.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Dont tell me that Lewis or Leclerc, Sainz, Lando or George struggled through their lower formulae and with second rate equipment and opportunity.

No, but they didn't pay people to stay behind them. Nor did they pay for the driver they thought the biggest threat at another team to jump to GP2. It was a whole new level.

[GTRMagic]

Andretti's best response to this would be for Mr Herta, Mr Ericsson & Mr Kirkwood to all be in the top 5 in every session, in every race in the Indy series in 2024.

Otherwise...

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Andretti's best response to this would be for Mr Herta, Mr Ericsson & Mr Kirkwood to all be in the top 5 in every session, in every race in the Indy series in 2024.

Otherwise...

One definitely doesn’t follow the other.
Should Audi be blocked because they didn’t win the 2023 Nurburgring 24 Hour?Nearly as relevant.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Alan52

One definitely doesn’t follow the other.
Should Audi be blocked because they didn’t win the 2023 Nurburgring 24 Hour?Nearly as relevant.

Not really Audi have bought an existing Team and have shown commitment rather than trying to climb on a Gravy train on the strength of a one smoke and mirrors promises

[Greem]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Andretti's best response to this would be for Mr Herta, Mr Ericsson & Mr Kirkwood to all be in the top 5 in every session, in every race in the Indy series in 2024.

Otherwise...

If the PR and Marketing teams at Andretti have their heads screwed on straight, there will be a limited run of very high-quality and very very expensive toasters launched later this year.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Not really Audi have bought an existing Team and have shown commitment rather than trying to climb on a Gravy train on the strength of a one smoke and mirrors promises

Quite. Also makes a mockery of the multiple pages of ridiculous overthinking above!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Not really Audi have bought an existing Team and have shown commitment rather than trying to climb on a Gravy train on the strength of a one smoke and mirrors promises

The problem with this thinking is it is a singular and narrow viewpoint. The "Gravy Train" had a process for entry. So there is no validity in knocking that process. An expectation that the ONLY way to get into F1 is to buy an existing team is just frankly repeating the views of the teams who want to keep this a closed system.

I really don't know what the "smoke and mirrors" comment is other than maybe that GM could potentially not actually produce a power unit as promised. Anything that might happen in the future has some doubt. Who knows, there might be another VAG scandal and Audi might not enter into F1. My point is that you could just as easily knock anything that is supposed to happen, but might not.

Richard

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Don't overlook the potential that he had as aF3 driver.
He was able to go head-to-head with people many would regard as far better f1 drivers and beat them.

So what is the problem now?
It is not a problem. Getting pole in Turkey a few years ago in the wet is just a glimpse of the potential within Lance.
Being well off and well-funded can be a curse when you're driving for dad.
Simply a lack of focus, sharpness, motivation et al.

Just remember all of your F1 drivers had to fight their way up, including Lance.
There is very little in pure speed between any of them.
The differences are in sharpness, hunger, desire, and motivation.

Their machinery may vary according to what they can get, but the available speed is much closer.

It is the application of their talent that enables one driver to rise above others.
Yes, they need a good car.
In 2023 Max had a good car and cleaned the field. Hamilton did not have the second-best car but finished second without winning a race.

Sainz and Perez won races but had other issues.
Leclerc had more front row starts than anyone except Max but never won a race.

How many of Strolls critics could have amassed what he already accomplished in his career and the people he beat lower down?
None of them.

Lance is a quick driver, his issues are all upstairs.

(his mind, not the AM boardroom)

But also maybe that

[S griffin]

Stroll is quick, especially in the wet, but lacks consistency. Although it has to be said last year he was hampered by lack of pre season running due to his injury. Hopefully he can do better this year

[porsche962fan]

how it used to be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8RHRl8GphY

and today i's not even close to 26 cars