Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Yep your right.......lets make Super Utes the main game,back to the workingmans series....

Keep your mask on - we don't want those germs to spread

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by Mixer

GT4 cars seem to be slow and expensive by comparison to something like a MARC car. They are way too close to GT3 in cost, plus some of them are ridiculous like KTM.

100% this.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by mayhem

100% this.

So the suggestion is that these things are the solution... A sort of cut-priced DTM/GT3?

More aero and wider tyres than a Supercar... Plus back to the Albins transmission which the Supercars teams were supposedly happy to be rid of!




Are all fans in favour of the increase in aero reliance (check out the size of that diffuser!) and bigger tyres that MARC platform would entail? We would expect the cars to move around a lot less than a COTF Supercar.

The 18"x13" rear wheels are a full 2 inches wider than a Supercar wheel [18"x11"], while the fronts are 1 inch wider at 18"x12". The increase in mechanical grip would certainly be welcomed by drivers, but would fans appreciate the reduction in sliding?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Sure but the lack of any controls on rules has resulted in cars that can cost more than a Supercar. Sure they're quicker but at least a Supercar has a place to go after its useful life in the top tier.

Hell Supercars have got expensive, but Sports sedans think they are F1 now and Improved Production think they are Sports Sedans.

Collective management can make any category its own worst enemy.

Is the Ricciardello Alfa from the 90s still the front running Sports Sedan?

Can you give an example of the F1 style units you are suggesting?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Is the Ricciardello Alfa from the 90s still the front running Sports Sedan?

Methinks the pilot has a lot more to do with this, plus the entries have been more than a little thin lately.

Originally Posted by cavvy

Can you give an example of the F1 style units you are suggesting?

Try this one that PACE are currently knocking up:
https://autoaction.com.au/2020/04/19...TDES6WI1Ivl21U

I was twirling spanners on these things 15 years ago and people were trying to bring in rules to try to limit spending in areas that didn't improve the show. Without unanimous support these rules don't get passed, so those that had the money kept spending on more and more exotic things. Some time later minimum weights came in that took the value out of these things but still.

If anybody reckons you're going to go get PACE to knock you up a bespoke Sports Sedan for less than the cost of a brand new Supercar I have a bridge to sell you.

The reason I bought this up is that both F1 and Supercars have the same problem. At some point changes needed to be made for the betterment of the sport but due to vested interests the ultimate decision could never be taken.

in F1, its around a spending cap, the top teams want to stay at the top.

In Supercars, stupid **** like the goofy Mustang roll hoop and disastrous homologation shouldn't have happened, and there were those in the group who saw it coming and tried to deal with the issues.

But there's too many fingers in the pie and the organisation is paralysed by committee.

Needs a good dictator to sort them out.... But I digress.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I was twirling spanners on these things 15 years ago and people were trying to bring in rules to try to limit spending in areas that didn't improve the show. Without unanimous support these rules don't get passed, so those that had the money kept spending on more and more exotic things. Some time later minimum weights came in that took the value out of these things but still.

Engineers work by the rule book. If it's within the rulebook and the owner has the funds to pay for it, then it's fair game.

For example, if they can afford it, why shouldn't a V8 Supercar team be allowed to test for 30 days a year? Why shouldn't they be allowed to have one (or three) four-post shaker rigs running 24/7 collecting data?

It's all about engineering the unfair advantage after all.



Isn't it truly bizarre that a club racer with an old MX5 is allowed to use a four-post shaker rig, yet a supposedly professional V8 Supercar team is not... What on Earth is that all about!?

Strangely, it is fair game to develop your own front suspension on your V8 Supercar when that probably should have been made a standard part, like the rear suspension, to cut costs.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by mayhem

I still say MARC II is the answer. Fast, relatively cheap, tough and look great.

Anyhow, no one replied to my question:

Should Supercars Gen 3 retain their unique under-tyred, under-aero formula?

OR should they adopt the wider tyre sizes [18x13 rims up from a Supercar's 18x11] and higher aero levels [complete with big diffuser!] that a MARC II car uses?

Marcos Ambrose already felt the V8COTF (with their improved weight distribution and IRS) handled too well compared to the old Project Blueprint cars, and adding wider tyres and more aero would only push the Supercars even more in the direction of handling well and being easier to drive...?

It is a good reminder when watching old races to remember just how badly V8 Supercars used to handle! Oran Park 2003 :P

[Oran Park = great track!]

[V8 Fireworks]

Perkins Supercar on shaker rig - no longer allowed

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

The big picture suggest that a more fundamental re-think is what is required for long term sustainability.

On the topic of sustainability, perhaps a downsize turbo formula with a hybrid would be more attractive to manufacturers.

They could still be 635bhp and RWD, but just four-cylinder powered and hybrid-assisted. Out with Mustang GT and in with Mustang Ecoboost Hybrid.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Methinks the pilot has a lot more to do with this, plus the entries have been more than a little thin lately.



Try this one that PACE are currently knocking up:
https://autoaction.com.au/2020/04/19...TDES6WI1Ivl21U

I was twirling spanners on these things 15 years ago and people were trying to bring in rules to try to limit spending in areas that didn't improve the show. Without unanimous support these rules don't get passed, so those that had the money kept spending on more and more exotic things. Some time later minimum weights came in that took the value out of these things but still.



If anybody reckons you're going to go get PACE to knock you up a bespoke Sports Sedan for less than the cost of a brand new Supercar I have a bridge to sell you.

The reason I bought this up is that both F1 and Supercars have the same problem. At some point changes needed to be made for the betterment of the sport but due to vested interests the ultimate decision could never be taken.

in F1, its around a spending cap, the top teams want to stay at the top.

In Supercars, stupid **** like the goofy Mustang roll hoop and disastrous homologation shouldn't have happened, and there were those in the group who saw it coming and tried to deal with the issues.

But there's too many fingers in the pie and the organisation is paralysed by committee.

Needs a good dictator to sort them out.... But I digress.

As a fan back to the sports closed days, seeing these things drying on the vine saddens me.
As a long time admirer of Basil & the crew, the way the Alfa has dominated for so long has done nothing for the class.
The PACE project cheers me up, thanks for that.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Casper

I struggle to think of any volume selling cars in the Australian market that could form the basis for any series that would have a large following. The days of the large family sedan are truly dead & buried and I think it has been proven that smaller capacity cars don't work here on a large scale. Maybe go back to the true sports sedan with loose rules as we had in the past. True innovation was then possible and they were awesome cars and great racing.

How about removing the sport from any considerations of what is currently on the road (it's all SUVs anyway) and from what manufacturers want to sell (they won't do it through racing anyway) and turn the series into a sport like football or rugby, i.e. one that exists without a real-world counterpart in the non-sporting-world, but only as entertainment. Let the fans have a vote on which era of body-styles they want to see again (e.g. BFs vs VEs) and build cars that look and sound just like that. (Maybe have another vote every 5 years to keep things reasonably fresh.)

It might sound crazy at first glance, but it actually has happened before in Argentina with their Turismo Carretera series, which is essentially stuck in a weird 1970s time-warp, but still manages to be the most popular form of racing in the country. That way, one could also preserve the tribalism of red-vs-blue even with Holden and Ford no longer involved in the series.

[V8 Fireworks]

Coming to a Supercars pitlane near you???





The shape is a lot more Mustang-like than the old BMW 4-series, so it could be a good fit for the category in terms of aerodynamic parity and the potentially lowered Gen 3 rollhoop.

Much grille-painting may ensue!

[Sandgroper]

Cool I just added a BMW to the fleet

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Cool I just added a BMW to the fleet

BMW would be a neat addition!

There is still not an ounce of news on Gen 3 -- it's a bit ridiculous really.

If Supercars are going to string out Mutantstang and Opel Insignia with Windsor & Aurora engines for 2022, 2023 and maybe further, that's quite OK but should they announce that *now* for clarity? If you are a sponsor, if are a REC holder, if you are the Adelaide 500 organiser... how can you commit when there is no indication on the direction of the category?

If Supercars are going to introduce Gen 3 for 2022, then surely the design work and prototype builds of the chassis, bodywork and engines (and announcements of manufacturer(s) OR announcement of moving away from manufacturer involvement) needs to start now?

[one five five]

Control engines and further-controlled chassis sounds a lot like Future Tourers....

[chavez]

Originally Posted by one five five

Control engines and further-controlled chassis sounds a lot like Future Tourers....

The Future has arrived?

[benny41]

Not sure if its been mentioned prior but could Nascars next gen be an option ?
It sound like they might be a bit more technologically advanced than previously. Cost may still be the issue but at least you can piggyback off the data nascar has. Id imagine that there are some learnings that supercars could share as well

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Gen_(NASCAR)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by benny41

Not sure if its been mentioned prior but could Nascars next gen be an option ?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Gen_(NASCAR)

A NASCAR with a carbon tub, sequential transmission, a diffuser, and centre-lock wheels is certainly a big departure for stock car racing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElofCc1z-gU

Great suggestion! It would be a great way to ensue Team Penske's ongoing involvement.

[Tourer]

May not have been in this particular thread but I've mentioned the same idea before.

There is an existing relationship level company-to-company between NASCAR and Supercar, it would enable commonality with another series, maintain V8 engines (I think NASCAR looking at hybrid power boost aren't they?) and as virtually all the Oz teams have friendships and relationships with NASCAR teams, could all add up.

[benny41]

The two sticking points are the control chassis which is built by dallara, i can imagine that it wouldnt be cheap to buy especially with the current exchange rate, but allowing teams to build it here might be a solution. Could also open up some export opportunities for our innovative aussie teams.

May also allow for 2nd cars to be raced here as well down the track.

Also is an easy way to get toyotas into the series!

[Gaz170]

Who in Aus is capable of building a carbon tub, even if the design is licenced from Dallara?

[Mixer]

Boeing, or Qinetiq

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[benny41]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Boeing, or Qinetiq

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

If the tub isnt changing and is the same for everyone in theory you should be able to pop them out of the same mold pretty simply, granted cost is still going to perhaps be an issue.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by benny41

If the tub isnt changing and is the same for everyone in theory you should be able to pop them out of the same mold pretty simply, granted cost is still going to perhaps be an issue.

You usually need an autoclave too, though supposedly there are some modern resins that don't require it? It would be great for PACE or Spectrum or others to develop the capability though, as they could also tackle the Formula 4 car market with some nice designs.

[S griffin]

I have to say I am looking forward to see how these Gen 3 cars come out. Let's hope all the effort has been worth it and then we can see if 2022 can be a great follow on from what we have now. It will keep V8 Supercars as top Australian motorsport at a time of uncertainty

[one five five]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I have to say I am looking forward to see how these Gen 3 cars come out. Let's hope all the effort has been worth it and then we can see if 2022 can be a great follow on from what we have now. It will keep V8 Supercars as top Australian motorsport at a time of uncertainty

I doubt we’ll see Gen3 anytime soon, who can afford it?

Why throw out stuff we already have when there’s no money to upgrade?