IMSA IMSA : 2019

[EffectiveSprinkles]

What does 'Euro' have to do with anything? WEC is a WORLD championship. ELMS is the European only one.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

What does 'Euro' have to do with anything? WEC is a WORLD championship. ELMS is the European only one.

Not sure if you're joking or what, but every single team in WEC is run out of Europe. Even the ones registered elsewhere are still run from Europe. Whether it's a world championship or not, Maelochs is talking about European teams coming over the associated costs, and building rules for a European market.

I agree with Maelochs on the whole lot except this little bit:

One thing IMSA seems to have learned is that it needs to design its series to its own needs—FIA/ACO is quite happy to kneecap the North American series to make its headline Euro race and series work to its own imagined best plan.

I’d love to see some of the P1 privateers head over, but IMSA cannot design its rules based on the hope that some teams which probably don’t see much RoI in crossing the Atlantic anyway, will spend huge dollars to ither travel or to set up another branch of the team.

On the other hand, if IMSA changes the rules to make the series more attractive to Euro teams, and they don’t come … what would the fallout be at home?

I 100% agree that IMSA should design its rules to suit the competitors it has, and the most likely potential competitors that it will have in the future.

However, I also think the ACO should do the exact same. But whenever the ACO makes its own rules, we quickly get told they're ignoring IMSA, or knee capping IMSA and what not.

There's a bit of double standards going on there. IMSA teams are not the WECs market, so the ACO should not be designing rules for IMSA teams. They should design the rules for what works best for them. That isn't sticking the finger up to IMSA - that's doing what's best for themselves. Likewise, IMSA not using the LMP1 regulations isn't sticking a finger up at the ACO - it's doing what's best for themselves.

If it's the right thing for IMSA to do what's right by their customers, then we should be using the same yardstick to judge the ACOs actions. The ACO aren't always the cleanest when it comes to moral decisions, but in this case they're doing nothing wrong.

--

For combined Prototype classes, I really don't think it's such a magical fix all that we'd all like it to be. Right now, DPi is cheap, and the US is a huge market for Toyota. Yet there isn't a Toyota DPi? Why? BMW want hydrogen prototypes - are we going to get that in IMSA?

Meanwhile, the GTE and GTLM regulations are near enough identical, and Corvette still say it isn't worth going to WEC. So even with the same car, they can't do it. Are we going to get a Cadillac over in Europe? They're even less common than Corvettes. An Acura? Not likely - they weren't popular even when they were LMP2s and the only ones that appeared are customers. Mazda? They didn't run the LMP2 over here either.

We've been there with ALMS and apart from Audi, there was no major movement between the continents, even with compatible rules. So I really don't see it achieving anything in that regard.

IMSA should continue what it's doing - it works incredibly well for them. ACO should continue listening to their customers. It's different markets and they have different aims. What I would love to see is a DPi invitational class at Le Mans though. Since non-WEC cars aren't scored at Le Mans for points, it'd make no difference.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

It would make a difference though because then you would have to cull proper entries in favor of a random class between P1 and P2 that nobody outside the USA cares for anyway. People are already complaining about teams getting left on the reserve list for Le Mans.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

It would make a difference though because then you would have to cull proper entries in favor of a random class between P1 and P2 that nobody outside the USA cares for anyway. People are already complaining about teams getting left on the reserve list for Le Mans.

Not going to dive too far into this, because wrong thread and we went over this back in January when entry list problems were discussed.

Limit the number of cars per team to 3 (something they previously did with a limit of 2 but didn't enforce). Limit the number of auto-entries per team to 2. Do not offer an auto-entry for AsLMS GT runner-up (it simply isn't strong enough) and do not offer an auto-entry for LM Cup GT3 winner (it isn't strong enough, and it's hardly fair to give an invite for that when there are ELMS GTE-Am teams who don't get one).

Also, if it's about creating a world stage (which is why ASLMS and ELMS teams go along) then there should be a handful of IMSA teams from the US present as well. The easiest way to achieve that is with an IMSA invitational class, which also happens to fit well with the history of the sport.

No need to try and mash everyone into one global prototype class - nobody will be happy with it. If the goal is to get American Prototypes at Le Mans, then invitations work just as well. You only need 3 or 4 of them as an invitation.

[Maelochs]

Akropovic---I wholly agree that FIA/ACO should do what works best for FIA/ACO. I don't see where they have much done other wise, anyway, but yes ...

A global specification would be great--if a manufacturer could build a car which could race in several series around the world, cost should drop ... but the markets are just too different, as you note. ("Acura" is not even a brand in Europe--they are sold as Hondas over there--and who would buy a Cadillac in Europe, pay the import fees and all that, to get ... well, a Cadillac?)

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Also, if it's about creating a world stage (which is why ASLMS and ELMS teams go along) then there should be a handful of IMSA teams from the US present as well. The easiest way to achieve that is with an IMSA invitational class, which also happens to fit well with the history of the sport.

I mean I get that, but the easiest way is not to invent a completely new class. The easiest way is just to invite the IMSA teams. The problem is that they hardly ever show up and when they do they're not even close to being competitive.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I mean I get that, but the easiest way is not to invent a completely new class. The easiest way is just to invite the IMSA teams. The problem is that they hardly ever show up and when they do they're not even close to being competitive.

Because the top IMSA teams don't have legal cars. If you invite them and they have a class to run in, there's more chance of teams showing up. And if they don't then fine - it doesn't actually matter.

It's not inviting a new class, it's just reviving the idea of having an IMSA based class. Something which was very common in the 80s and 90s. That way they can turn up, race without modifying their cars (or leasing new ones), and without interfering with the WEC Championship battles.

Not only is it not hard, it's a solution that's been used many times before.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Again, I disagree. It's actually very hard because you would have to cull proper entries. That it's been used in the past is not an argument at all. I don't think the argument about cars is valid either, with very few adjustments they can run in the P1 class or they can just get a legal car. Penske raced Petit Le Mans with a regular P2 car already, no reason they can't do the same at Le Mans. So no, I disagree that creating a class just for that is the easiest way or even the best way.


Now, I do agree IMSA should just do whatever they want. They just have to keep in mind that two of their three classes are ACO created classes...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Again, I disagree. It's actually very hard because you would have to cull proper entries. That it's been used in the past is not an argument at all. I don't think the argument about cars is valid either, with very few adjustments they can run in the P1 class or they can just get a legal car. Penske raced Petit Le Mans with a regular P2 car already, no reason they can't do the same at Le Mans. So no, I disagree that creating a class just for that is the easiest way or even the best way.

It's not very hard...we just went over how you'd free up a few posts up (the bit you cut out of the quote), and we did it back in January and February too. As I said - not going to dive too deep into it, because this is an IMSA thread not an ACO one.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It's not very hard...we just went over how you'd free up a few posts up (the bit you cut out of the quote), and we did it back in January and February too. As I said - not going to dive too deep into it, because this is an IMSA thread not an ACO one.

Yes I cut that out because it was not relevant and also contradictory, why should IMSA get more spots and other championships less?

Again, IMSA teams can come already on invitation. They just hardly ever do, and it's certainly not easy to just create an entire class just for them. Silly too since they would only have one or two other cars to race against.

[Akrapovic]

Yes, it's totally not relevant that we invite teams that don't have legal cars. I'm sure if we invited the BTCC grid, they'd all show up too! However -

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

As I said - not going to dive too deep into it, because this is an IMSA thread not an ACO one.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

They already invite teams without legal cars (GT3 teams for example), so I really don't see why that's an argument. If say Penske got an invite they would certainly think about it.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

.....with very few adjustments they can run in the P1 class or they can just get a legal car. Penske raced Petit Le Mans with a regular P2 car already, no reason they can't do the same at Le Mans. .

Wow.

Hmmm …..

“with very few adjustments”? How could a Cadillac DP1 become a competitive P1-L? How much would it take? Who would pay for it? When would it be done?

Are you suggesting that Action Express should buy three chassis (one per team, and a spare) and modify them to P1 specs, then test them, tweak them, and fly them to France ... for one race?

It’s not like they just need to change the decals. For one thing, they’d have to switch to Michelin rubber—which means All Suspension Data collected through the seasons past would be Worthless. They would have to do a lot of testing just to get the tires to work, and to learn how the tires work—testing other teams get over seasons of running WEC/ELMS/AsLMS.

I am not even sure if a DPi chassis can be run in P1 without all new bodywork—which means totally different aero. I Think the P2 chassis is P1-eligible—I hope so. If not, then it is even worse.

But it is bad enough.

There really are no “few adjustments” with cars which are supposed to average 140 mph for 24 hours straight. Little changes can have big consequences—such a WTR having to pull out of Daytona this year because the tires didn’t work. And those were tires the team was familiar with. Now they are switching to all new rubber from a different manufacturer?

Where is the financial return? Why would an IMSA team Want to go to Le Mans to run badly?

And yes, Penske ran a P2 in IMSA. But All their development and a lot of their sponsorship is tied to the Nissan DPi. So again, who would pay Roger Penske to buy a new car, and set it up for Le Mans?

Obviously the engine, chassis, and bodywork wouldn’t be an issue … just the tires and suspension, which are a large part of whether the car performs—or crashes.

And why would Roger Penske Want to go to Le Mans to run for the second or third class? He pulled out of IMSA (then ALMS) when he couldn’t contest overall wins with a P2. Why would he go to Le Mans to run for fifth or seventh?

As for some WEC/ELMS/AsLMS entries not making the cut—yeah, it is a cut. Cars which are marginal might not make it.

I heard plenty of complaints about Ginetta wasting two entries with cars which weren’t ready. A pair of Invitational Class DPis could have put on a decent showing, likely—and wouldn’t have to change a thing to run there, because they wouldn’t be running for WEC points. The fastest WEC cars could get full points, but the DPis could get the press and the podium and the celebration—I bet Cadillac would spring for a trip to France to get that “Cadillac Wins at Le Mans” headline.

And honestly, what would be lost? A couple of the P2 cars which were marginal at best anyway?

Do you know, without looking at the results, which were slowest four P2 cars? The last-placed P2 cars to be running at the end? I guarantee most people cannot and they would not be missed.

On the other hand, a lot of people would have been interested to see DPis running. I recall when ACO invited some NASCAR stock cars it seemed to be a pretty popular decision on both sides of the pond.

The best thing might be for ACO and IMSA to not even worry about whether or not any IMA teams contest Le Mans. But expecting teams to build special cars just to run Le Mans, and either to run foreign rubber or to pay big bucks to test Michelin tires, plus whatever other mods—it is not a sensible solution.

Two invitational spots seems a Lot simpler.

And, given that 55 or 56 entries is arbitrary—ACO could invite a couple DPis and Not bump any Euro teams at all.

So … I guess that solves all those problems, right?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I'm sorry, that's just a wall of nonsense I'm not going to even attempt to pick apart.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I'm sorry, that's just a wall of nonsense I'm not going to even attempt to pick apart.

Sorry but your previous post is complete nonsense and shows you have ZERO clue about racing, costs and how things are done.

There's a better chance of me driving a Toyota hybrid the rest of the season than Penske accepting an invite to le Mans any time soon. Penske ran a P2 car because he was PAID to run the same P2 chassis he would be running with Acura this season as the DPi. Penske does not, and has never, spent his own money to race. That's why Penske has done the impossible and made a big fortune out of a small one racing. Acura has less than zero interest in le Mans any time soon so there's no chance he's going.

As for the small changes needed claim, it's a HUGE endeavor to change a P2 to a P1 non hybrid. First thing is, you buy a new car. None of the cars are upgraded P2s right now, information from building the P2s has influenced the P1s but they are not swappable chassis. Please listen to Hugh and others when they talked about building the Rebellion car, it's not the P2 with a new engine. The Dallara for the base of the BR Engineering is not the base Dallara P2, thankfully cause that's a dud again. It's a major investment which is why the teams who stuck with a P2 car in IMSA choose to go that route. Second thing is, the tires are also a HUGE change, Corvette had a problem with the Michelin confidential LM tires a couple years ago and they run Michelin in IMSA. Now you want teams to go Conti bricks to Michelin (P1) or Michelin or Dunlop (P2) without testing or info? Seems a might bit optimistic on your part there.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Please listen to Hugh and others when they talked about building the Rebellion car, it's not the P2 with a new engine.

No, but it IS built off of the same tub:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...ical-analysis/
"The Rebellion R13 uses the same tub as that used in both the R-One and the LMP2 customer chassis"


Not really surprising though since LMP1 and LMP2 tub rules are identical now.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Sorry but your previous post is complete nonsense and shows you have ZERO clue about racing, costs and how things are done.

There's a better chance of me driving a Toyota hybrid the rest of the season than Penske accepting an invite to le Mans any time soon. Penske ran a P2 car because he was PAID to run the same P2 chassis he would be running with Acura this season as the DPi. Penske does not, and has never, spent his own money to race. That's why Penske has done the impossible and made a big fortune out of a small one racing. Acura has less than zero interest in le Mans any time soon so there's no chance he's going.

As for the small changes needed claim, it's a HUGE endeavor to change a P2 to a P1 non hybrid. First thing is, you buy a new car. None of the cars are upgraded P2s right now, information from building the P2s has influenced the P1s but they are not swappable chassis. Please listen to Hugh and others when they talked about building the Rebellion car, it's not the P2 with a new engine. The Dallara for the base of the BR Engineering is not the base Dallara P2, thankfully cause that's a dud again. It's a major investment which is why the teams who stuck with a P2 car in IMSA choose to go that route. Second thing is, the tires are also a HUGE change, Corvette had a problem with the Michelin confidential LM tires a couple years ago and they run Michelin in IMSA. Now you want teams to go Conti bricks to Michelin (P1) or Michelin or Dunlop (P2) without testing or info? Seems a might bit optimistic on your part there.

Great post, and just to add a little bit more to it - current LMP1 regulations do not permit factory-backed cars to run non-hybrids. Since all the addy teams are factory-backed, it'd be a farce to let them run against true private teams anyway.

[MaskedRacer]

Quick tip for Admin. I think we need a thread separate to discuss DPI cars vs others. I would call it "DPI vs The World". But call it whatever you want of course if you go that route.

They are good posts and it is interesting but it might have little to do with the IMSA 2019 season.

[carbsmith]

As I think has been said about a hundred times now, the eligibility of full season IMSA chassis at Le Mans is irrelevant for schedule and logistic reasons anyways.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Quick tip for Admin. I think we need a thread separate to discuss DPI cars vs others. I would call it "DPI vs The World". But call it whatever you want of course if you go that route.

They are good posts and it is interesting but it might have little to do with the IMSA 2019 season.

Quick tip, anyone can start a thread!

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by joeb

Quick tip, anyone can start a thread!

Just my 2 cents... In a thread about 2019 in June of 2018, a little off-topic discussion with a kernel of relevance seems entirely within reason. Having well thought out and expressed opinions being dismissed with "wall of nonsense" type replies is much worse.

[TF110]

Let IMSA stay it's course. If it thinks it's the best idea to success, they have only themselves to blame if it's not. If they want to stay with rebadged lmp2's with some suspension upgrades and new headlights that's on them. I think guys like Ford will be really let down if they don't go with the ACO's new rules. And I think the cost talk is just a little bit blown out of proportion. The only reason you needed a hundred million for lmp1 was because there were two VW companies spending twice that to one-up each other. I don't think Toyota needs to put that up or anywhere close to that now. As far as splitting the dpi's from lmp2, it's got positives and negatives. I don't care which way they go. To me, IMSA right now is just a bop lottery in every class. It seems the wec is headed that direction too but I hope that it's curtailed in the future in both of these series.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Let IMSA stay it's course. If it thinks it's the best idea to success, they have only themselves to blame if it's not. If they want to stay with rebadged lmp2's with some suspension upgrades and new headlights that's on them. I think guys like Ford will be really let down if they don't go with the ACO's new rules. And I think the cost talk is just a little bit blown out of proportion. The only reason you needed a hundred million for lmp1 was because there were two VW companies spending twice that to one-up each other. I don't think Toyota needs to put that up or anywhere close to that now. As far as splitting the dpi's from lmp2, it's got positives and negatives. I don't care which way they go. To me, IMSA right now is just a bop lottery in every class. It seems the wec is headed that direction too but I hope that it's curtailed in the future in both of these series.

Agreed.

[JHamilton]

I'm assuming the ACO knows something we don't and has more interest from large manufacturers rather than just McLaren and Aston Martin. Otherwise, it is a bizarre direction to go in that screws the new P1 manufacturers and privateer teams. 2020 is more than an aggressive time line without something already in the works.

I really doubt that IMSA will be incorporating the new formula immediately because it just doesn't make any sense until the current P2 cars are at the end of their lifespan (2022?). The DPi formula has proven to be successful by attracting top manufacturers, teams, and drivers, so I hope and don't really see the point in messing with it at this time.

I hope this works out for the ACO and Le Mans but I was surprised not to see an evolution of the P1 rules. I naively assumed we would have a GTP/Group C type situation.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Keep in mind that because of the new schedule these regulations would not be for Le Mans 2020, but for the season that starts after that in late 2020. Somewhere around August/September. First time Le Mans for these new top class cars would be 2021, so it would be Daytona 2022 at the earliest were IMSA to adopt the same regulations for them.