Current F1 Power Supply Units

[JacobP]

When the "unit" has an internal combustion engine, an electric engine, battery, and several generators, it's probably not appropriate to call it all an "engine". Power Unit is a better term I guess.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As you say they've only got the use of it for one year and I'm sure RBR would want to be competitive but I would have thought RBR's own development would be down to Renault approving it.

Well, it looks like this is only a stop-gap solution. In this Autosport article 'Onward Christian Horner' says that the team is well placed for a 2017 engine: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122337

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Well, it looks like this is only a stop-gap solution. In this Autosport article 'Onward Christian Horner' says that the team is well placed for a 2017 engine: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122337

However he is still beating the independent drum over at Motorsport.com.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ho...nce-f1-665096/

[Oldtony]

It really is time that all 4 PU manufacturers started using their own PR departments to beat their drum about what they have achieved.

Mercedes have most to gain, and a layman's explanation of the through shaft resulting in better turbo performance using the MGU-H to compensate for kinetic effect would be interesting.

Fiat/Chrysler would get good PR about the improvements they have achieved at Ferrari. They haven't told that story at all.

Honda have a story to tell about axial flow if the rumours are correct. But they haven't told the story.

The overall gains in fuel efficiency are something worth shouting about but they let "Onward Christian Horner" dominate the PR area with his whingeing and complaining.

There are those of us out there who are interested in things other than the latest Britney v Hamster celebrity spat or the nefarious plotting of Bernie, Max and Jean.

[Adam43]

These PU are inherently interesting.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

It really is time that all 4 PU manufacturers started using their own PR departments to beat their drum about what they have achieved.

Mercedes have most to gain, and a layman's explanation of the through shaft resulting in better turbo performance using the MGU-H to compensate for kinetic effect would be interesting.

Fiat/Chrysler would get good PR about the improvements they have achieved at Ferrari. They haven't told that story at all.

Honda have a story to tell about axial flow if the rumours are correct. But they haven't told the story.

The overall gains in fuel efficiency are something worth shouting about but they let "Onward Christian Horner" dominate the PR area with his whingeing and complaining.

There are those of us out there who are interested in things other than the latest Britney v Hamster celebrity spat or the nefarious plotting of Bernie, Max and Jean.

I couldn't agree more with the sentiment that all the manufacturers have been too quiet about the huge technical advances of the latest generation of power units.They represent a lot of progress and it has been achieved in a very short time span.

On the other hand,they were starting from a fairly low base.If only the FIA had mandated turbocharged two stroke diesels,they have always been the most efficient of engines and who knows what might have been achieved.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I thought about mentioning the "stinky" aspect of PU as well.



Last question... Do the rules allow for RBR to get extra engines and/or components (not for use in race cars) so RBR could push the envelope in development of non-homologated PU related items (software, etc.)

Richard

Richard raises an interesting point here, do RBR get just enough PUs or do they get extras for development and, who choses the units that they get, as must be a question for any customer team.

The manufacturer can obviously build as many units as he wants and test them to destruction on the ever more sophisticated test beds that teams are developeing with the money they don't spend on track testing.

From a race engine selection point of view all the ICE units will be tested and run in before supply to the race team and experience shows that, no matter how carefully you control tolerances and build quality, from a batch of identical units some will develop more power than the rest, they will not all be identical. So if Mercedes build a batch of, say, 50 engines the best will be selected for the factory team and the others supplied to the customer teams.

Renault will do the same and the supply to RBR will be selected from a larger batch, so as Richard asks, do Renault supply development units to RBR. Taking it a little further, do Renault supply complete, tested ICE or do they come in kit form? One suspects complete units but is that the case?

Editing PS: Do the engines go to RBR built up or do RBR personnel go to Renault and build the engines for themselves?

[Mike Harte]

Old man, can't directly answer your question about the the way the ICEs are delivered to a team, but regardless, don't forget that each team has a dedicated group of engineers from the suppliers embedded in their team when at their bases as well as at the races/tests.

In addition, the PUs required for each race are delivered to the teams from the suppliers at the track on most occasions, but certainly for the fly away circuits. I believe that the days of the teams loading their cars on the transporters with the PUs in situ on the way to or from the tracks are long gone, certainly for racing.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

It really is time that all 4 PU manufacturers started using their own PR departments to beat their drum about what they have achieved.

Mercedes have most to gain, and a layman's explanation of the through shaft resulting in better turbo performance using the MGU-H to compensate for kinetic effect would be interesting.

Fiat/Chrysler would get good PR about the improvements they have achieved at Ferrari. They haven't told that story at all.

Honda have a story to tell about axial flow if the rumours are correct. But they haven't told the story.

The overall gains in fuel efficiency are something worth shouting about but they let "Onward Christian Horner" dominate the PR area with his whingeing and complaining.

There are those of us out there who are interested in things other than the latest Britney v Hamster celebrity spat or the nefarious plotting of Bernie, Max and Jean.

Whenever did F1 use their track success to sell cars, (Ferrari is different)? To sell cigarettes, booze and computers maybe but not cars from my recall. If the technical advances are not being applied or not slated to be applied to a road car it all becomes a moot point anyway.

Onto RB v's Renault. If I were to put my tin foil hat on I could visualise Renault ignoring RB's attempts to get them to listen and apply ideas from Illien this year but next year all of a sudden they are all ears and want all the help they can get because they have to run their own motor in their own branded car. That wouldn't be true would it??

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

Whenever did F1 use their track success to sell cars, (Ferrari is different)? To sell cigarettes, booze and computers maybe but not cars from my recall. If the technical advances are not being applied or not slated to be applied to a road car it all becomes a moot point anyway.

Onto RB v's Renault. If I were to put my tin foil hat on I could visualise Renault ignoring RB's attempts to get them to listen and apply ideas from Illien this year but next year all of a sudden they are all ears and want all the help they can get because they have to run their own motor in their own branded car. That wouldn't be true would it??

Colin Chapman used Team Lotus to sell Lotus cars and more recently there's been McLaren.

[wnut]

Speaking of sales of hybrid vehicles.

Hybrids and electric vehicles struggle to maintain owner loyalty:


http://www.edmunds.com/about/press/h...dmundscom.html

and

Hybrid ev sales tumble:

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...mble/29565265/

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Speaking of sales of hybrid vehicles.

First sentence of the second article says it all...

Sales of hybrid and electric vehicles fell sharply in the first half of 2015, hurt by low gas prices, fewer incentives and a broader market shift away from cars.

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Colin Chapman used Team Lotus to sell Lotus cars and more recently there's been McLaren.

That's a long list and one was forty years ago.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

First sentence of the second article says it all...



Richard

That is not all there is to the sales drops in fairness Richard

"They are also being hurt by a consumer shift away from cars toward crossover and sport utility vehicles."


and

"Other issues include vehicle cost, current battery technology, and inadequate consumer understanding."


I would argue that their customers are beginning to understand exactly what the problems with the vehicles are.


Also interesting to note that they reckon obtaining 1million electric vehicles in the USA is now several years off, given there are 254 million passenger vehicles registered.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Casper

Whenever did F1 use their track success to sell cars, ??

To my recall a tin-pot little outfit called Ford credited years of using badge engineered Cosworth engines to raise their profile in terms of quality, technical advancement and sporting heritage.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

That's a long list and one was forty years ago.

I should have included Alfa Romeo, in that long list, who fielded an F1 team in the late '70s and early '80s, as did Renault. Team Lotus continued their association with Lotus cars after Colin Chapman's death. Then there were BMW's various ventures with Brabham, Sauber and Williams. Honda were in the mix somewhere as were Jaguar and now Mercedes. I nearly forgot, Renault are back as Renault, again.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

That is not all there is to the sales drops in fairness Richard

"They are also being hurt by a consumer shift away from cars toward crossover and sport utility vehicles."


and

"Other issues include vehicle cost, current battery technology, and inadequate consumer understanding."


I would argue that their customers are beginning to understand exactly what the problems with the vehicles are.


Also interesting to note that they reckon obtaining 1million electric vehicles in the USA is now several years off, given there are 254 million passenger vehicles registered.

At the risk of turning this into a discussion on hybrid economics... I think those are nothing more than knock on effects of low gas prices and lack of financial incentives. I do think there is some truth to people being more educated about long term maintenance costs, but that also again rolls up into cheap gas and no financial incentives.

Right now gas is cheap so many (here in the US) are drifting back to gas guzzlers. The pendulum will swing back at some point just like it did the last time gas prices went up.

Richard

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Right now gas is cheap so many (here in the US) are drifting back to gas guzzlers. The pendulum will swing back at some point just like it did the last time gas prices went up.

Richard

I think you have summed it up Richard.
The States has always enjoyed ridiculously low gas prices compared with most of the world. While for most bof automotive industry history the US has been the big, dominant and most influential market this is no longer the case and thus trends there are not necessarily going to follow world wide. It is easy to view the world from a limited perspective from inside the US.
The down turn (as market share) of EVs and Hybrids there doesn't seem to be occurring elsewhere.
Thus, to get this back on topic, the development of hybrid technology in F1 to help cover the bridging period for personal transportation over the next 30-40 years is an important way of seeing the sport survive.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

To my recall a tin-pot little outfit called Ford credited years of using badge engineered Cosworth engines to raise their profile in terms of quality, technical advancement and sporting heritage.

For a sport that promotes the technical flow on to cars there is very little or no advantage taken by way of promotion by the manufacturers. One or two major attempts in 50 years? Not much is it. In fact from my memory it was track success and not the technical design that was promoted just as happened in all racing back then. I can recall advertisements in Monday morning newspapers using race wins as a means of promotion. Quite simply the so called technical advances made in F1 are not used to promote the sport in any meaningful way.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

At the risk of turning this into a discussion on hybrid economics... I think those are nothing more than knock on effects of low gas prices and lack of financial incentives. I do think there is some truth to people being more educated about long term maintenance costs, but that also again rolls up into cheap gas and no financial incentives.

Right now gas is cheap so many (here in the US) are drifting back to gas guzzlers. The pendulum will swing back at some point just like it did the last time gas prices went up.

Richard

On hybrid economics did everyone watch this video? https://youtu.be/F4H3FE0Z4QQ

He makes some very good points on why cars and hybrids are not good economics.It is really an excellent and entertaining overview of hybrid technology and its use.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

On hybrid economics did everyone watch this video? https://youtu.be/F4H3FE0Z4QQ

He makes some very good points on why cars and hybrids are not good economics.It is really an excellent and entertaining overview of hybrid technology and its use.

Some sense at last, turbine driven generators with electric motors and battery load sharing is perfectly acceptable.

200 kg of hybrid junk producing only 4 MJ per lap on an F1 is no solution to anything, produces the energy of just under 7 litres of fuel over a GP distance.

Trolley buses are a very good solution.
Probably should be concentrating on how to transmit grid power directly to city cars and trucks.

[Casper]

Hybrids in cars are going to be a passing phase and will be looked back on with a question mark and much laughter I suspect, a bit like steam cars. I always thought that a rotary motor would be where the turbine is and it may yet happen. A small rotary running at a set speed can be emission controlled, smooth and economical to run.

I think also that F1 has to some extent got itself between a rock and a hard place and no clear way out of the dilemma that I can see.......

The fan base wants a return to atmo V8's, they grew up with IC engines and they don't like the new era at all. This clearly can't happen because the manufacturers don't want it and the steady march away from IC engines is gathering pace, not for fuel price reasons but emissions need to be wound back. Europe will force the pace here and guess where F1 is based, in Europe of course.

Formula E has occupied the place that F1 should be moving slowly into so that prevents F1 going in that direction without admitting they got it wrong and losing face.

Hybrids are a passing phase so they need to move past it as quickly as possible, 10 years maximum according to my crystal ball which I polished this morning. To where do they move, all electric is the obvious answer of course.

F1 management is dysfunctional and one half is fighting the other half trying to decide where the future is and neither side are admitting they got it wrong and moved to quickly instead of waiting a few years. We can see that in retrospect but admitting it is a bitter pill to swallow and the current management and stakeholders (trendy word for today) certainly won't admit they got it wrong.

[old man]

Thanks Casper, excellent link and thought provoking presentation

[Casper]

The link was posted earlier in the thread by someone else but it seemed to be ignored by most and not commented on so I thought it needed to be put up again.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Casper

The fan base wants a return to atmo V8's, they grew up with IC engines and they don't like the new era at all.

And this assertion is based on what exactly? When the 2,400cc V8's were introduced in 2006, they were not at all popular among fans. Personally, I never liked them. They produced a sound that was loud but awful as well, lacked torque and were in no way relevant to anyone.