[Rules] "Changes to improve the show"? [current F1 overtaking multi thread merge]

[Super Hans]

No sane motor racing enthusiast enjoys seeing competitors killed or seriously injured. However, it is beyond doubt that the risk of death or serious injury adds something to the spectacle.

I think it was Stirling Moss who made the comparison with tightrope walkers. Watching an acrobat walk the wire across Niagara Falls, or between two skyscrapers, is thrilling. Watching him do the same 6 inches off the ground is less so, even though the skills involved are the same.

I admire the likes of Prof. Watkins and Jackie Stewart for their efforts in making Grand Prix racing safer but at the same time I am concerned that the sport could become so safe that sterility sets in. It's an interesting paradox and one that I've not yet been able to resolve in my own mind.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

And in the pre-pitstop era every driver had more or less the same race strategy, dictated by weather they were running a hard or soft compound tyre.

The race strategy is not only about taking the right tyre compound, but also about pushing in the first or later stages of the race.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

Now I know some people will take offence to your post, but i'm not one of them.

I understand fully what you're saying and I share your sentiment. There has to be some element of danger, or Joe Public will believe he can go and do the same as the drivers (I actually read today someone claiming they rekon if they were in a modern day F1 car, they could "easily" be within 2-3 seconds of Schuey. Really).

Sutil actually said something along these lines not too long ago in regards to the tracks being 'sanitised'.

It's not about wanting a bloodbath, it's about keeping things real. We're living in a day and age where health and safety bots are covering everything in bubble wrap. We don't want our sport (or business) to get sucked in, although it maybe too little too late.

The difficulty is balance. Yes, we want safety measures and recent technologies added. Things like the HANS device are a wonderful invention that have saved many lives, and I think if anyone was to doubt the use of this device (and anything along those lines, for that matter) would have to be sick.

My point is, for example, we must lose the mile long run offs. These are apparently the very best drivers in the world, so why are they being giving umpteen chances at making certain corners?

It's like asking footballers to play in slippers so nobody gets studded or bones broken.

Selby

I have to agree also. Stirling Moss frequently says that part of the thrill for motor racing is the danger element. That's not to say he or anyone else has a death wish, far from it. So would others slate Moss for having this opinion? I think not.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

No sane motor racing enthusiast enjoys seeing competitors killed or seriously injured. However, it is beyond doubt that the risk of death or serious injury adds something to the spectacle.

I think it was Stirling Moss who made the comparison with tightrope walkers. Watching an acrobat walk the wire across Niagara Falls, or between two skyscrapers, is thrilling. Watching him do the same 6 inches off the ground is less so, even though the skills involved are the same.

I admire the likes of Prof. Watkins and Jackie Stewart for their efforts in making Grand Prix racing safer but at the same time I am concerned that the sport could become so safe that sterility sets in. It's an interesting paradox and one that I've not yet been able to resolve in my own mind.

Sir Stirling's comparison is much better than my football/slippers one But the point remains, and it's a very difficult paradox.

I don't think you can really come up with an argument against safety on the driver (ie. helmets, HANS devices) him/herself. I think to a certain degree, the same could be said about the cars (for instance, the higher sides on the cars to protect the driver are a positive that couldn't really be disputed). However, sticking a roof on top of an F1 car for safety reasons wouldn't be quite so acceptable.

Selby

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The race strategy is not only about taking the right tyre compound, but also about pushing in the first or later stages of the race.

I never said race strategy was only about tyre compound, it's an aspect of it. There is establishing your position at the beginning of the race and then there's consolidating it and finally bringing the car home.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

That was twisted. People who watch a sport, and view the macabre as part of the competition, are twisted. I got no other words for you.

Unfortunately there is that side of human nature. We are fascinated by death. It's the one experience throughout human existence that we all share and yet only as individuals will experience; no one else can tell us what death is like or going to be like, it is truly unique. Then there's the whole debate about is there something after death or what happens after death but that's for a different forum.

[Purist]

I never had cable when I was younger, so I watched CART and NASCAR, and that was about it. My favorites were Al Unser Jr., and Dale Earnhardt. The former doesn't even get his name mentioned anymore, and for all that I know what he's been up to since 2001 or so, he might as well no longer be among the living in that regard. I'm hoping another generation of the Unser family will return to major racing sometime here. As to Dale Sr., I don't think any further explanation is needed, and I will NEVER have another favorite like he was, in NASCAR at least, ever again, I don't think.

As an aside, I also got to know the late Indy Car driver Paul Dana; I had some good talks with him and his driving coach: John Paul Jr.

Sir Stirling has had a number of things to say on the matter. He IS one of those who thinks a man has the right to take on a dangerous, even life-threatening, pursuit, if it is his choice; he said as much on the "Wind Tunnel" interview a few years ago. I think he also talked about how, there was one man willing to walk that tight rope between the Twin Towers, but if the wire was just a meter off the ground, who wouldn't have a go at it? Finally, Stirling Moss, in one particular film clip, likened the danger and uncertainty of motorsport in his day to flirting with a girl and having to just hope it goes well, as opposed to hiring a prostitute.

I think a couple of things lately have gotten me more on edge about these issues. First and foremost, there was that fracus at Atlanta between Brad Keselowski and Carl Edwards. That incident, more than anything else just a the moment, is what my "There is something horribly wrong with this picture" comment was directed at. NASCAR didn't deck Carl for what he did, not even close. They practically let it slide, and for Bristol, they STILL had those "The gloves are off" film snippets going to ad breaks. There is something horribly wrong when any driver in any series premeditates punting a guy at 185mph, and thinks "nothing" will happen or come of it. I mean, that's some confidence to have in how invincible you think you are while behind the wheel at those speeds, and that type of confidence is more dangerous than any lack of roll cage, retaining walls, or anything else. Human error is the cause of most accidents, and having a human who is that complacent as a race driver is a recipe for a real disaster. And this is still going on after these two got together last season (albeit not intentionally that time), which resulted in a woman in the stands at Talladega getting a broken jaw.

The other thing on my mind is the stupid stuff "Joe Public' will do on the road. Although this isn't directly to do with street racing, it isn't any better. In the past week or so, there have been two wrong-way collisions on divided highways near Wichita. The parties in the second incident were lucky, as nobody died, but four were killed in the first crash.

I'm angry, disappointed, and thoroughly disgusted that things have reached the point where race drivers feel safe enough that they can get away with some of the things they do on-track. I'm frustrated that people just want to do away with some elements of the F1 cars that I like (this isn't just confined to F1 cars though), and that I don't see as being at the root of our current problems. Finally, I'm also angered at the neutering of existing circuits and the utter soullessness of most new Grade 1 road racing circuits. It's like being a child and being told I just don't know better or don't understand (that me, my thoughts and views just don't matter), and being punished by having something I value taken away.

I think I'll take a few days off from the F1 section here. Enjoy Melbourne!

[rustyfan]

Well said Purist, agree 100%.

[duke_toaster]

I agree with the sentiments, but I think it's an increase in idiocy (and the tolerance of such things by organizers) as opposed to an increase in safety that's causing these problems. NASCAR shouldn't have thrown the book at Carl Edwards, they should have got Fatima Whitbread to do it, or, even better, launched it at him with a large cannon.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"Why is that?"

You answered it yourself.

"Something has become horribly wrong with this picture"

That was twisted. People who watch a sport, and view the macabre as part of the competition, are twisted. I got no other words for you.

DITTO

wnut

[wnut]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I agree with the sentiments, but I think it's an increase in idiocy (and the tolerance of such things by organizers) as opposed to an increase in safety that's causing these problems. NASCAR shouldn't have thrown the book at Carl Edwards, they should have got Fatima Whitbread to do it, or, even better, launched it at him with a large cannon.

Well said!

Brad Keselowski the innocent party would have paid for the actions of Carl Edwards with his life! Thankfully the safety measures that have been taken saved him!

Carl Edwards should be banned for life!

Do not for 1 second believe that a more dangerous environment would have prevented this action!

Regards

wnut

[Sodemo]

See, this is the kind of thing that the FIA should be stamping down on. What is the point of banning all the winglets etc from the chassis if they are just going to tranfer them to the front wing? I mean, I can appreciate the technology and its a fantastically engineered piece of front wing, but its this kind of thing that needs to be stamped out.



Now I have done a quick 2 minute photoshop addition to the kind of thing I think is tolerable for wings. GET RID of all the extra elements, make it mandantory to have a set surface area of a (small) given dimension for the engineers to work to. If you make the surfaces smaller, there is less to gain from aero wholesale, so the field will close up anyway in terms of aero performance (perhaps not aero effeciency).



So that is the kind of thing I think should be allowed, much smaller front element, get rid of all the extra flaps, do a similar thing with the rear wing, make the elements smaller, restrict the available surface area for downforce.

[onenastyviper]

Wet conditions produce the best racing, why?
Mechanical grip becomes much more important and why mid-to-back field cars come into play. They can design lots of mechanical grip but aero grip requires much more investment in testing, wind tunnels etc.
If the FIA was serious about improving the show they would have never reduced the size of the front slicks, I would have increased the rears to balance.
My ideas:
Front wing - single fixed plane unit with single adjustable tabs of area X
Rear wing - single fixed element, single adjustable element
Bodywork- no aerodynamic wing, barge boards allowed. Radiator vents to be in a specified area and no louvres. Exhaust to only exit from specified area at X angle to horizontal & vertical alignment.

What do you think?

[JeremySmith]

Good...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by onenastyviper

Wet conditions produce the best racing, why?
Mechanical grip becomes much more important and why mid-to-back field cars come into play. They can design lots of mechanical grip but aero grip requires much more investment in testing, wind tunnels etc.
If the FIA was serious about improving the show they would have never reduced the size of the front slicks, I would have increased the rears to balance.
My ideas:
Front wing - single fixed plane unit with single adjustable tabs of area X
Rear wing - single fixed element, single adjustable element
Bodywork- no aerodynamic wing, barge boards allowed. Radiator vents to be in a specified area and no louvres. Exhaust to only exit from specified area at X angle to horizontal & vertical alignment.

What do you think?

Maybe the FIA should set up a sprinkler system around every track, so if the racing gets dull they simply turn it on and immediately the race can be run under wet conditions. Also to make it more interesting, different parts of the rack could be made wet and also the intensity of the water could be altered. To promote a 'Green' environment a drainage system, set up around the edge of the track collects the water so it can be recycled.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe the FIA should set up a sprinkler system around every track, so if the racing gets dull they simply turn it on and immediately the race can be run under wet conditions. Also to make it more interesting, different parts of the rack could be made wet and also the intensity of the water could be altered. To promote a 'Green' environment a drainage system, set up around the edge of the track collects the water so it can be recycled.

This is not a good idea..

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe the FIA should set up a sprinkler system around every track, so if the racing gets dull they simply turn it on and immediately the race can be run under wet conditions. Also to make it more interesting, different parts of the rack could be made wet and also the intensity of the water could be altered. To promote a 'Green' environment a drainage system, set up around the edge of the track collects the water so it can be recycled.

Just hold the GP at Silverstone, or Spa, or China, or anywhere except a bl**dy desert!
John

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Just hold the GP at Silverstone, or Spa, or China, or anywhere except a bl**dy desert!
John

Didn't Charlie Whiting go to Quatar recently? Do we have another Gulf State GP in the offing? They should experiment with my sprinkler idea there.

[duke_toaster]

I think he did visit it, but it's been a bit quiet about other things - perhaps they are looking for a 1T licence. The circuits are part of the problem, too many of them are simply not conducive to good racing - they also happen to be the ones that get rubbish crowds like all the the post-1998 flyaways (obvious exception being Singapore, which has produced some quite interesting races, mainly as it's a street circuit). If the likes of Barcelona, Hungaroring and Shanghai were replaced by more interesting propositions such as Portimao, Jerez and one or two more proper street circuits (not too many more, and I mean proper street circuits not Valencia type monstrosities).

Unfortunately, due to the current commercial rights situation, one that would be considered absolutely loopy in any other sport, there's only one factor that determines which country gets F1 races - who's willing to Bernie the most ...

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They should experiment with my sprinkler idea there.

Ahem! The sprinkler idea was suggested by Davyboy as far back as 2007 and is therefore known as the Davyboy Sprinkler System. I was dead against it at the time but I seem to be less so now.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Ahem! The sprinkler idea was suggested by Davyboy as far back as 2007 and is therefore known as the Davyboy Sprinkler System. I was dead against it at the time but I seem to be less so now.

My apologies to Davyboy. Did he incorporate the 'Green' aspect, the guttering and water recycling? My apologies again.

[JohnD]

Originally Posted by JohnD

Just hold the GP at Silverstone, or Spa, or China, or anywhere except a bl**dy desert!
John

Or, according to the forecast, Albert Park!

[dsg]

Ahem, cough.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....0&postcount=20

Edit: and well before my time.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....14&postcount=3

[duke_toaster]

To be brutally honest, I think that there are other things that could improve the racing greatly, mainly technical regulation changes (less aero grip by mandating single element plus varioflap front and twin element rear wings balanced by more mechanical grip through things like larger rear tyres and venturi tunnels), without turning the sport in to Jeux Sans Frontieres.

[Pingguest]

Although it might improve the racing, the introduction of venturi tunnels has its safety implications. The most important one is that teams could easily get more downforce for a minimum drag penalty.

Instead, Formula 1 should get rid of the diffusers. No standardization, but elimination. Downforce should be generated by regulated front and rear wings only. Without diffusers, the legislator could also decide to take the wooden plank away and allow us to enjoy the sparks again.