Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Would love to have a go at the RLM comp to be there but I have a bloody revision session at the same time :'(

I'm working but I entered it anyway. Nice problem to have if you win.

[Richard T]

Really excited for this, imagine 4 factory P1 teams!

What's that? 3+2+2+2 = 9 factory cars! And 3-4 privateers as well

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Richard T

Really excited for this, imagine 4 factory P1 teams!

What's that? 3+2+2+2 = 9 factory cars! And 3-4 privateers as well

I'm hoping Porsche will up to 3 cars next year. Not sure if Toyota are able.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by Richard T

Really excited for this, imagine 4 factory P1 teams!

What's that? 3+2+2+2 = 9 factory cars! And 3-4 privateers as well

A question really for a different thread, but I wonder if/when we'll ever see privateer ran Porsche 919's bulking up the LMP1 entry? Or even Japanese ran Toyota TS040? Or maybe that concept is a thing of the past.

[Acid09]

Privateer factory cars have become even more unlikely this day and age with all the technology, these cars are simply too costly to run for a semi-privateer effort.

Running that 908 one year contributed a great deal to killing the Pescarolo squad, the only other team that privately entered a factory P1 in the last years was Oreca and they're miles ahead of your typical privateer teams in terms of technical ability.

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

[img][/img]

source: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/nissan-zeod-rc/

Originally Posted by deltawing

Please explain how using a P1 2014 compliant tub shows that a team is not taking seriously P1 entry? No one can stop you from openly expressing you disliking for a brand or a specific car a brand produced, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to pick your battles and when hitting, you have to hit with something that makes sense.

Easy take a look at the above pictures. You see any suspension pick ups on the front of that tub? I don't. Then take a look at and modern LMP tub, and guess what? You find suspension pick ups on it. Which is why the Audi LMP1 tubs were damaged at Silverstone. Damage a pick up point on a tub, typically means serious work and/or a new tub. I'd think it's extremely hard if not impossible to repair CF tubs of certain designs. Now do we think Audi, Porsche, Toyota, etc... place the pick up points on the tub for fun? Or maybe because the wheels are a certain distance from the cockpit which means pick up points need to be on the tub to achieve the suspension geometry they're looking for. Whereas that ZEOD tub the pick ups are way up front not attached to the tub. Which means even if they could use the tub for an LMP1, there are some serious design issues in turning into a true LMP1 tub as the suspension pick ups are in the wrong place. Could they add pick ups to the tub? sure maybe, but last time I checked when you design something for a certain loading situation, then change it completely you have seriously compromised the design of the original thing. Sure you maybe able to add this and that, but that's a huge compromise.

And thanks for the lesson on compromises when running a project. Yes we all should know that compromises must be taken to efficiently use all of your resources. But the compromise using a tub supposedly optimized for one car of a certain geometry, on a car with a substantially different geometry is not the best idea when you're competing with teams (Porsche, Audi, and maybe Toyota) who are likely building new tubs every year with a new design from the things they learned the previous year.

Anyways I stand by my original statement. If Nissan uses the ZEOD tub for their LMP1 they're not very serious.

Hell we all said Toyota hasn't been serious in the past and at least they built a bespoke tub for their LMP1 cars.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by nkoske

Easy take a look at the above pictures. You see any suspension pick ups on the front of that tub? I don't. Then take a look at and modern LMP tub, and guess what? You find suspension pick ups on it. Which is why the Audi LMP1 tubs were damaged at Silverstone. Damage a pick up point on a tub, typically means serious work and/or a new tub. I'd think it's extremely hard if not impossible to repair CF tubs of certain designs. Now do we think Audi, Porsche, Toyota, etc... place the pick up points on the tub for fun? Or maybe because the wheels are a certain distance from the cockpit which means pick up points need to be on the tub to achieve the suspension geometry they're looking for. Whereas that ZEOD tub the pick ups are way up front not attached to the tub. Which means even if they could use the tub for an LMP1, there are some serious design issues in turning into a true LMP1 tub as the suspension pick ups are in the wrong place. Could they add pick ups to the tub? sure maybe, but last time I checked when you design something for a certain loading situation, then change it completely you have seriously compromised the design of the original thing. Sure you maybe able to add this and that, but that's a huge compromise.

And thanks for the lesson on compromises when running a project. Yes we all should know that compromises must be taken to efficiently use all of your resources. But the compromise using a tub supposedly optimized for one car of a certain geometry, on a car with a substantially different geometry is not the best idea when you're competing with teams (Porsche, Audi, and maybe Toyota) who are likely building new tubs every year with a new design from the things they learned the previous year.

Anyways I stand by my original statement. If Nissan uses the ZEOD tub for their LMP1 they're not very serious.

Hell we all said Toyota hasn't been serious in the past and at least they built a bespoke tub for their LMP1 cars.

So, after several pages along this line, we arrive at the conclusion that Nissan IS serious, because the ZEOD tub is designed specifically for that car, requiring a completely different tub for the P1 effort.

I would say I will be glad when Nissan finally makes their announcement, but that won't satisfy the nay-sayers. It will remain vaporware. Even when it shows up on the grid at Siverstone, because Silverstone isn't LeMans.

For the younger folks around here, this won't be Nissan's first foray into top level sports prototype racing. That was this car:



It was so good, it decimated the (Porsche) competition and started an arms race that culminated in AAR's Toyota Eagles, which were so good, they ended up killing the series. Some interesting potential parallels with what is happening now.

Maybe we should be careful what we wish for.

[Dimension]

If Audi didn't manage to kill the series I doubt Nissan can (on their own).

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Dimension

If Audi didn't manage to kill the series I doubt Nissan can (on their own).

There was many years of Porsches winning GTP until Nissan showed up.

[nobster]

And by that time the 962 was getting a bit old...

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by nkoske

Easy take a look at the above pictures. You see any suspension pick ups on the front of that tub? I don't. Then take a look at and modern LMP tub, and guess what? You find suspension pick ups on it.

Your point is what? What I take away from this rather brainless statement is that you don't understand how a car is built, nor designed. Not everything has to match what others do.

Which is why the Audi LMP1 tubs were damaged at Silverstone. Damage a pick up point on a tub, typically means serious work and/or a new tub. I'd think it's extremely hard if not impossible to repair CF tubs of certain designs.

Wrong. You can fix a tub.

Now do we think Audi, Porsche, Toyota, etc... place the pick up points on the tub for fun? Or maybe because the wheels are a certain distance from the cockpit which means pick up points need to be on the tub to achieve the suspension geometry they're looking for.

I assume the etc is Rebellion, anyhow, that's called car design champ. They aren't placed there for aesthetics. Probably placed there as that's where they were designed to be.(sarcasm)

Whereas that ZEOD tub the pick ups are way up front not attached to the tub.

Not entirely correct, the front half of the chassis is bonded to the center tub, so, semantically speaking, it's connected.

Which means even if they could use the tub for an LMP1

They could

there are some serious design issues in turning into a true LMP1 tub as the suspension pick ups are in the wrong place. Could they add pick ups to the tub? sure maybe, but last time I checked when you design something for a certain loading situation, then change it completely you have seriously compromised the design of the original thing. Sure you maybe able to add this and that, but that's a huge compromise.

Who is to say they've not realized through testing/simulations that the tub really works well for both? Short of having that data in front of you, I'm not certain how you've come to this.

But the compromise using a tub supposedly optimized for one car of a certain geometry, on a car with a substantially different geometry is not the best idea when you're competing with teams (Porsche, Audi, and maybe Toyota) who are likely building new tubs every year with a new design from the things they learned the previous year.

So...how many P1 cars have you designed and built? Not everything has to be built the same way to achieve a similar goal.

Anyways I stand by my original statement. If Nissan uses the ZEOD tub for their LMP1 they're not very serious.

Hell we all said Toyota hasn't been serious in the past and at least they built a bespoke tub for their LMP1 cars.

And who is to say Nissan isn't? It's quite plausible the photos shown are beign used for a spare chassis. It's also possible it's being built up as a show car.

OR....perhaps the tub actually will WORK as a P1 tub and you are just making assumptions without a basis.

[Bandicoot17]

Is there anything to suggest they'll use the ZEOD tub anyway??

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Is there anything to suggest they'll use the ZEOD tub anyway??

Absolutely nothing! ......

(Medic, nice try!)

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Absolutely nothing! ......

(Medic, nice try!)

Wasn't "trying" anything. Just making a point that it's rather shortsighted to to assume intent, and drive based off of, well...uh, assumptions.

It seems that this has degraded into some random conversation about how a tub, theoretically, would not work, though, there is no tangible proof it wouldn't..for a car that hasnt been announced, or even shown to anyone in draft.

I think assuming Nissan ISN'T serious about it's motorsports program is just foolish, especially based on three pictures of a spare ZEOD chassis or tub being built up for LeMans.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by miatanut

For the younger folks around here, this won't be Nissan's first foray into top level sports prototype racing. That was this car:



It was so good, it decimated the (Porsche) competition and started an arms race that culminated in AAR's Toyota Eagles, which were so good, they ended up killing the series. Some interesting potential parallels with what is happening now.

Maybe we should be careful what we wish for.

But but that's not the Nissan R382.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Beryl

But but that's not the Nissan R382.

Wow!


I never knew about that one. I was an F1 fan then, so I knew about the Honda F1 car, but didn't discover sportscar racing until '70 and then my focus was Porsche.

Did this one ever race in the US?

[deggis]

6L V12

But looks like that wasn't the first either:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_R380
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_R381
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_R382
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_R383

Apparently were only raced in the Japanese GP. Imagine if these and the Toyota 7 had ended up in Can-Am.

[Beryl]

I brought up the R382 because he specifically mentioned "top level sports prototype racing" and the R382 was the first to face top foreign competition in the Porsche factory team. The R380-II's and R381's biggest rival was local in the form of Toyota.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Beryl

I brought up the R382 because he specifically mentioned "top level sports prototype racing" and the R382 was the first to face top foreign competition in the Porsche factory team. The R380-II's and R381's biggest rival was local in the form of Toyota.

Did they attend European Group 7 rounds or CanAm?

If they didn't, I think the honor still goes to the Electramotive GTP, because it was a full-season effort.

[Bandicoot17]

As ZEOD designer Ben Bowlby puts it, “The Nissan ZEOD RC will utilise technology never before seen at Le Mans and will provide a unique experience for the fans. To see the car go down the Mulsanne Straight at 300km/h in virtual silence will be unique. Developing the battery technology to incorporate this into a Le Mans prototype is an enormous challenge, but the lessons learnt will not only be very beneficial for the future LM P1 program, but also we can use this information to assist in the development of future versions of the Nissan LEAF and other electric vehicles for the road.”

http://www.drivingline.com/2014/05/n...sive-pictures/

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

http://www.drivingline.com/2014/05/n...sive-pictures/

I was surprised to see that the tub is build bij ADDESS.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

http://www.drivingline.com/2014/05/n...sive-pictures/

They've been using that LMP1 line in PR for near enough 12 months.

For them to announce anything else next Friday would be a big mistake. But I'm confident it will be an LMP1. Just depends what the 'BUT' is. Because I'm sure there will be one.

[GT6]

Well friday will be here soon and then we will know for sure

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Just depends what the 'BUT' is. Because I'm sure there will be one.

What if the relatively sudden clarification of the ERS incentive was actually a carrot being dangled in front of Nissan's nose ...

Pure speculation on my part, but it would mean that Nissan will have been given their desired reassurances for taking part and most of the arguing will have been done before their P1 effort arrives. So to the casual viewer/new fan (which is where Nissan's PR has been aimed) they will have had no part to play in any BoP-like nonsense.

[Richard T]

What is the weight of the ZEOD? Is there any official numbers?