[Tech Issue] 2011 Pirelli tyres

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Well, why not?

Some artificial snow, a man-made hurricane - all will all add to the show, surely? How about the start/finish straight flooded with burning fuel? That should hot things up!

The tyres going through the hot fuel might just be the thing the Pirellis need.

[Spritle]

On the final lap, they could place all the DNF's in a row with ramps on either side. The winner would have to jump the DNF'd cars a-la-Evel Knievel in order to win the race.

Obviously with the number of DNF's varying race to race, an element of surprise would be introduced thereby improving the show.

[Spritle]

Or possibly a flaming hoop could be added to that ramp for certain races!

[chillibowl]

im not saying BE's idea is the way to go (as a one off drivers challenge i would enjoy the top gear novelty of it) but something needs to be done to shift the excitement from the first 10 laps to the last 10. with the amount of money being spent an F1 race should always be riveting from beginning to end.

the talent level is too high, the drivers don't make too many mistakes and cars dont break down like they used too. everyone out there is just too perfect and while that is appealing in an OCD kind of way it does not make for very compelling TV.

as a fan i love F1 the way it is but at the same time if i am being honest i am more interested in what the midfielders are doing than by the action or lack of it up front)

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Spritle

Repeat after me, the definitions may be different but what pray tell is the difference in result?

A tyre that wears, degrades, deteriorates, goes-off, loses grip, grains, a marble maker is essentially the same thing when it comes to performance...

...rubbish!

How about if we coin a new term, Pirelli which will be synonymous with rubbish by seasons end.

Love your work!

My experience of Pirelli road tyres was similar to yours, half the grip twice the wear and went off in 2 laps. As someone said stones to Pirelli for staying true to their brand and duplicating their road tyres for the track.

P.S. Spritle - you should certainly hide if your prediction regarding the tyres doesn't come true - It will be the first time in history a prediction on 10/10s didn't come true or an opinion was wrong!

[cmotd]

well really what is all the fuss about? the fact that Pirelli were asked to make a tyre that would degrade faster than the bridgestones has been known since half way through last season. just take a deep breath and move on - all this speculation is pointless until we see what happens in the first few races

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Well, why not?

Some artificial snow, a man-made hurricane - all will all add to the show, surely? How about the start/finish straight flooded with burning fuel? That should hot things up!

Bernie could just book Disneyland and have all the races there..

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Bernie could just book Disneyland and have all the races there..

Yeah and he wouldn't even have to hire a stand up commedian if he attended!

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Bernie could just book Disneyland and have all the races there..

Yes except you can't see the New York skyline from California and it doesn't snow.

It will never do...

[Marbot]

Martin Whitmarsh defends Pirelli.

"We complain about the high wear, but no one talks about the great grip of the tires in new condition."

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/42322.html

[Spritle]

This quote from MW is a bit perplexing:

"It's easy to step into the car and complain, but we want more pit stops and we want cars that at various stages of the race are fighting with their tyres. That's part of the show."

We do? Then why did we eliminate fuel stops? I thought pit stops enabled the much dreaded pit overtaking manoeuvre that needed to be eliminated at all cost. What's next, random stop & go penalties...

...does anyone in F1 have a clue? I thought just Bernie was totally daft.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Spritle

This quote from MW is a bit perplexing:

"It's easy to step into the car and complain, but we want more pit stops and we want cars that at various stages of the race are fighting with their tyres. That's part of the show."

We do? Then why did we eliminate fuel stops? I thought pit stops enabled the much dreaded pit overtaking manoeuvre that needed to be eliminated at all cost. What's next, random stop & go penalties...

...does anyone in F1 have a clue? I thought just Bernie was totally daft.

Tyre stops and fuel stops are totally different, fuel stops are predictable, usually to the exact lap, that is why we see so much "overtaking in the pits" and why fuel stops have a negative effect on the racing.

Tyre stops are not so predictable; you can never be sure when you have caught a driver struggling for grip, when he will actually stop, indeed if you are well into the race he may try to carry his flagging tyres to the end in which case you HAVE to pass him, which you might well be able to do, after all he lacks grip doesn't he. Real tyre stops (which take place because tyre performance is dropping off, not because the rules say you have to stop) have a positive effect on the racing.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Spritle

This quote from MW is a bit perplexing:

"It's easy to step into the car and complain, but we want more pit stops and we want cars that at various stages of the race are fighting with their tyres. That's part of the show." .

Hmmmm

well that's what we've got already MW........

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hmmmm

well that's what we've got already MW........

Well, 2010 was definitely the year of the 'single' stop. So "more" pit stops means more than one, presumably.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Tyre stops and fuel stops are totally different, fuel stops are predictable, usually to the exact lap, that is why we see so much "overtaking in the pits" and why fuel stops have a negative effect on the racing.

Tyre stops are not so predictable; you can never be sure when you have caught a driver struggling for grip, when he will actually stop, indeed if you are well into the race he may try to carry his flagging tyres to the end in which case you HAVE to pass him, which you might well be able to do, after all he lacks grip doesn't he. Real tyre stops (which take place because tyre performance is dropping off, not because the rules say you have to stop) have a positive effect on the racing.

Says it all really.

No one has got to stop to change tyres, not even in the days of refuelling was that ever compulsory. It was something that was just a no-brainer to do while you were waiting for the fuel to go in.

Back in the days of refuelling it used to be simplicity itself for rival teams to know approximately when a driver had to stop for tyres, and the tyres were so good that you could actually do your fastest lap at the end of your stint and then pass the guy who was in front of you at your pit stop.

Unfortunately, because of the tyres (mainly) and the rules governing their use, it was also far too predictable to know when drivers were going to stop last season, despite the fact that refuelling had been banned. Hopefully that has now been addressed.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Tyre stops and fuel stops are totally different, ...

I thought that too. I didn't think Webber had to spell that out myself.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

Tyre stops and fuel stops are totally different, fuel stops are predictable, usually to the exact lap, that is why we see so much "overtaking in the pits" and why fuel stops have a negative effect on the racing.

Tyre stops are not so predictable; you can never be sure when you have caught a driver struggling for grip, when he will actually stop, indeed if you are well into the race he may try to carry his flagging tyres to the end in which case you HAVE to pass him, which you might well be able to do, after all he lacks grip doesn't he. Real tyre stops (which take place because tyre performance is dropping off, not because the rules say you have to stop) have a positive effect on the racing.

I disagree. And drivers like Hamilton and Sutil have an different opinion too, as pointed out earlier. With tyres lasting quite a short distance, the driver is unlikely to make any real difference. Whether a driver can save his tyres or stay out on a worn set of tyres is going to be equally possible as a driver could save fuel and stay out on a low fuel load during mid-race refuelling era.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Whether a driver can save his tyres or stay out on a worn set of tyres is going to be equally possible as a driver could save fuel and stay out on a low fuel load during mid-race refuelling era.

I'm not sure that is true, once the fuel is in the driver could only make a lap or so difference (in normal circumstances). You could gamble on a few laps extra on the tyres. You have to also factor in the judgement. There is no judgement on the fuel, you come in when it runs out. You can get the judgement wrong on the tyres, it changes each lap. I know the new rules, as always, are ridiculous, but the situations are different. I'm not saying it will be night and day difference and the saviour of our times, but it isn't the same.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I disagree. And drivers like Hamilton and Sutil have an different opinion too, as pointed out earlier. With tyres lasting quite a short distance, the driver is unlikely to make any real difference. Whether a driver can save his tyres or stay out on a worn set of tyres is going to be equally possible as a driver could save fuel and stay out on a low fuel load during mid-race refuelling era.

Courtesy of Autosport.

Here are some run times (1 minute +) from the last day of the Barcelona test:

"Webber did 59 quick laps during his three-stop race simulation. We think tyre use went soft-soft-hard-soft. Red Bull has been the best at holding onto the tyres, but the times drop away pretty quickly when he is on a full tank throughout both the first two stints.

The hard tyre hangs on a lot better and for a lot longer, but the pace is not as impressive as we've seen it. Webber explained after the session that the steep drop-off at the beginning of the final stint was due to traffic and not the tyres. The feeling is that this was quite a conservative run, and Webber admitted that they would do things differently in later race sims..."

Webber
29.7, 29.8, 30.1, 31.4, 32.0, 32.0, 32.4, 33.2, P
27.4, 27.9, 28.9, 29.8, 30.2, 30.8, 31.1, 31.3, 31.9, 32.4, 32.6, 33.2, 33.6, P
29.9, 29.6, 29.8, 30.3, 30.8, 30.2, 30.8, 30.4, 30.6, 30.7, 30.6, 32.6, 31.8, 31.3, 31.1, 32.3, 32.5, 32.3, 33.6, 33.2, P
24.9, 28.3, 29.1, 28.4, 28.3, 28.3, 29.0, 28.5, 29.0, 29.4, 28.6, 29.1, 32.0, 29.2, 30.1, 29.8, 30.3, 30.7

"McLaren only did one run of more than 10 quick laps, and it was this 16-lap effort. The times are scattered all over the place and the only explanation Hamilton would give afterwards was that he was getting overtaken a lot... So we're still waiting for a positive sign on the MP4-26."

Hamilton
29.5, 29.1, 29.4, 29.7, 32.1, 30.8, 34.8, 30.8, 37.0, 31.1, 31.4, 32.3, 44.5, 51.9, 49.2, 34.3

"Ferrari did a lot of laps again. There was no race simulation, but there were a couple of runs of around 30 laps. This one was 27 with one stop in the middle, and the F150 Italia held onto the tyres impressively - less than two seconds slower after 14 laps. The pace was a lot more varied after the pitstop, but the genuine pace seems to drop by around two seconds again."

Massa
28.2, 36.5, 27.8, 28.1, 28.3, 28.7, 29.0, 28.9, 28.9, 29.3, 29.2, 29.4, 29.9, 30.1, P
31.5, 26.5, 26.9, 31.4, 27.3, 27.4, 27.6, 28.3, 28.4, 28.9, 32.1, 28.0, 28.1

It's clear from this that some are happier than others with the Pirelli tyres.

[Sodemo]

This is my one worry for 2011. Remember back during the tyre war era, drivers used to complain that they sat in a car's slipstream for so long that their front tyres began to go off...? The tyres were that bit softer, that the understeer which the car ahead created caused the following car to knacker its front tyres after a handful of laps.

With the single tyre supplier of the last few years, we haven't really seen that. The tyres were that much harder and could take a few laps of abuse. I fear that with the 2011 tyres drivers will get stuck behind another car and his front tyres will go off after 2-3 laps.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I fear that with the 2011 tyres drivers will get stuck behind another car and his front tyres will go off after 2-3 laps.

Don't remember anyone having too much difficulty with overtaking at the 2010 Canadian GP when Bridgestone got it spectacularly wrong....or right?

Sooner or later all of the drivers tyres will "go off", but not so predictably as it was before.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Don't remember anyone having too much difficulty with overtaking at the 2010 Canadian GP when Bridgestone got it spectacularly wrong....or right?

Sooner or later all of the drivers tyres will "go off", but not so predictably as it was before.

That was one race though, at a track which actually rewards a bit of understeer in the setup to aid traction.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

That was one race though, at a track which actually rewards a bit of understeer in the setup to aid traction.

Indeed it was, but I doubt that understeer was the prime reason that the tyres degraded.

[chunterer]

If the following cars tyres do go off quickly then that will surely create some overtaking possibilities for the next guy along?

And, if there's a train of cars following a slowcoach, then I imagine that train will start to trip over one another in frustration which will create some excitement in itself.

These tyres not lasting very long will be a good thing for TV.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

These tyres not lasting very long will be a good thing for TV.

Agreed. The drivers may not like them, and the 'speed freaks' may not like them.

But if they help to stave off Bernie's sprinklers.........