Grand Am making its move, is it time for ALMS to make its move?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by andy_b

thanks guys. I think an all-new car is out of the question, hence this discussion of an update on the existing chassis over an all-new car, as outline by Marshall.

You've done a nice job Andy, and interesting article. I'd be keeping my eye out for the Kansas City Shuffle.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

The DP's still look like crap. I don't know what direction they want to take the series in, but apparently it is not the right one for sports car racing. NASCAR needs to worry about NASCAR with its record low TV rating and rows of empty seats that accompany every track. I think the bubble is soon to burst.

Nascar is fine. The bubble already burst 2-3 years ago, this is their "down" period and they're still in pretty decent shape. Their "record low" ratings are still 15x what open wheel and sports cars get, and they actually have TV networks and sponsors paying them, not time buys like IRL and the ALMS. Their attendance numbers are settling back into what they were pre "boom" in the early 2000s. If you haven't noticed, the US is sorta in a recession now. I mean, when the NFL is having trouble selling out games, it's kinda hard to expect much else to do so.

The tracks went nuts in the early 2000s and added huge numbers of seats, most fought for a second date. Now they can't fill them. Nascar works at this by contracting dates from tracks like california and atlanta that don't sell worth a damn.

The DP formula is consistent and provides good racing. You don't have the game every year of wondering if They'll get more than 3 prototypes to show up to a race like the ALMS does. Car counts are consistent enough that they don't have to fill the field with more than half of the cars consisting of spec racers as moving chicanes.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Nascar is fine. The bubble already burst 2-3 years ago, this is their "down" period and they're still in pretty decent shape. Their "record low" ratings are still 15x what open wheel and sports cars get, and they actually have TV networks and sponsors paying them, not time buys like IRL and the ALMS. Their attendance numbers are settling back into what they were pre "boom" in the early 2000s. If you haven't noticed, the US is sorta in a recession now. I mean, when the NFL is having trouble selling out games, it's kinda hard to expect much else to do so.

If the green element of LMS type racing continues to gain traction, I think this is where ACO based racing will benefit. We're seeing it from Ford in a way - their ecoboost engine theme fits better in the 'Global leader in green racing' than in a series that still hasn't embraced fuel injection, and still used leaded gasoline within the last decade or so. . .

I know we have laughed at the stock ALMS has put in the green effort, but perhaps it will begin to pay its dividends as car companys want product placement to fit with what they are trying to sell.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Nascar is fine. The bubble already burst 2-3 years ago, this is their "down" period and they're still in pretty decent shape. Their "record low" ratings are still 15x what open wheel and sports cars get, and they actually have TV networks and sponsors paying them, not time buys like IRL and the ALMS. Their attendance numbers are settling back into what they were pre "boom" in the early 2000s. If you haven't noticed, the US is sorta in a recession now. I mean, when the NFL is having trouble selling out games, it's kinda hard to expect much else to do so.

The tracks went nuts in the early 2000s and added huge numbers of seats, most fought for a second date. Now they can't fill them. Nascar works at this by contracting dates from tracks like california and atlanta that don't sell worth a damn.

The DP formula is consistent and provides good racing. You don't have the game every year of wondering if They'll get more than 3 prototypes to show up to a race like the ALMS does. Car counts are consistent enough that they don't have to fill the field with more than half of the cars consisting of spec racers as moving chicanes.

IndyCar doesn't buy its air time, picchiofan, and the IRL never has done so.

ABC pays them to show the 500, and Versus is currently paying them to broadcast in the 2nd year of a 10 year contract.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Not that anyone watches it, though. The Andy Blackmore car looks a lot nicer than the current DP's (hardly a stunner in the great scheme of things but there's limitations in place as mentioned). Reminds me a bit of the Aquila. The racing is still good from time to time, and if the cars are a bit more bareable to watch it can only be a good thing.

[JAG]

I do wonder who thought up the idea of DTM cars being the support act given they cost a fortune to buy and run, and need factory help to run competitively.

[Jonerz]

The rumor I've heard is that 1) DTM, GT500 and DP will all feature a common chassis and 2) Grand-Am will go its own way on rules but Grand-Am will become a partner to help bring a couple DTM rounds to the U.S.

Chris

[JAG]

IMO the DTM, Super GT, Grand-Am link seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking on GA's part.

Mercedes and Audi have spent tens, perhaps hundreds of millions of Euros propping up the DTM while they wait for a third manufactuer. BMW's entry is dependent on these cars having a worldwide market so Mercedes and Audi are bending over backwards trying to form worldwide partnerships.

Mario Theissen was at PLM so he would have seen with his own eyes how foolish it would be to move away from that series, even if they do enter the DTM.

[Speed-King]

Mario Theissen was at PLM so he would have seen with his own eyes how foolish it would be to move away from that series, even if they do enter the DTM.

I think you guys are blowing the success of this year's PLM way out of proportion. The official attendance number was 125.000, which is of course mighty impressive, BUT it's only up 11.000 as compared to the year before - which is again a nice increase, but not really all that Earth shattering, especially when you consider that a lot of the other ALMS races this year had smaller crowds than in years before. Part of the increase is thus likely due to people deciding to go to PLM to see the Audis and the Peugeots rather than attending one of the regular season rounds.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

especially when you consider that a lot of the other ALMS races this year had smaller crowds than in years before.

There were events with lower attendence, Miller and Laguna, but overall the average attendence was up this year, even before adding in PLM.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think you guys are blowing the success of this year's PLM way out of proportion. The official attendance number was 125.000, which is of course mighty impressive, BUT it's only up 11.000 as compared to the year before - which is again a nice increase, but not really all that Earth shattering, especially when you consider that a lot of the other ALMS races this year had smaller crowds than in years before. Part of the increase is thus likely due to people deciding to go to PLM to see the Audis and the Peugeots rather than attending one of the regular season rounds.

Overall attendance was actually up. The only races with large drops in attendance were the Utah round and Laguna Seca round(moving it earlier in the year was stupid). Also the previous record for the Petit Le Mans was not last year, but 2008 when 113,000 fans showed up over the weekend.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Overall attendance was actually up. The only races with large drops in attendance were the Utah round and Laguna Seca round(moving it earlier in the year was stupid). Also the previous record for the Petit Le Mans was not last year, but 2008 when 113,000 fans showed up over the weekend.

Luckily for me, I was at both races.

[6157]

Originally Posted by JAG

IMO the DTM, Super GT, Grand-Am link seems to be nothing more than wishful thinking on GA's part.

If it's wishful thinking why has DTM invited Tom Bledsoe, Mark Raffauf, and co. to two races this year?

If it's wishful thinking why did BMW initiate the discussions between DTM and Grand-Am?

I better not say anymore, don't want to get banned again.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Funny how the ban-hammer is never far away at the slightest mention of Grand Am...

Careful. People have been banned for saying less. I would know.

[JAG]

They can talk all they like, the DTM and Super GT manufactuers already spend LMP1 type money to support their thriving home series, yet these cars are expected to materialise on the other side of the pond in numbers...............and play support act to ten year old DP's?

It's not people on forums like this that have condemend GA to be a failure, it's the wider public, car enthusiasts, techheads, gamers and such.

A narrower cockpit here, some stick on headlights there, such thinking shows contempt for the 'modern sports fan'.

The ALMS is attracting a younger demographic who in this internet age understand the differences between a 908 and a DP or an M3 GTR and a spaceframe RX-8. Thirteen years on from the first Petit Le Mans this younger fanbase is making itself heard and seen, manufactuers and sponsors are taking note.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by 6157

If it's wishful thinking why has DTM invited Tom Bledsoe, Mark Raffauf, and co. to two races this year?

If it's wishful thinking why did BMW initiate the discussions between DTM and Grand-Am?

There have been talks with a number of parties, on various directions some of which didn't go anywhere. It is hard to judge the accuracy of things heard, but if what I've heard is anywhere near accurate, there will likely be no tie in with between Grand Am/DTM and Super GT.

[trahsub]

Originally Posted by JAG

They can talk all they like, the DTM and Super GT manufactuers already spend LMP1 type money to support their thriving home series, yet these cars are expected to materialise on the other side of the pond in numbers...............and play support act to ten year old DP's?

It's not people on forums like this that have condemend GA to be a failure, it's the wider public, car enthusiasts, techheads, gamers and such.

A narrower cockpit here, some stick on headlights there, such thinking shows contempt for the 'modern sports fan'.

The ALMS is attracting a younger demographic who in this internet age understand the differences between a 908 and a DP or an M3 GTR and a spaceframe RX-8. Thirteen years on from the first Petit Le Mans this younger fanbase is making itself heard and seen, manufactuers and sponsors are taking note.

Agreed. Not to mention the younger generation is environmentally conscious, and though most don't know the differences between a NASCAR car and an R18, they do gravitate towards the buzz words: hybrid, clean diesel, alternative energy sources.

[Speed-King]

They can talk all they like, the DTM and Super GT manufactuers already spend LMP1 type money to support their thriving home series, yet these cars are expected to materialise on the other side of the pond in numbers...............and play support act to ten year old DP's?

1.) The next generation DTM-cars will be drastically cheaper than their current counterparts - probably even cheaper than current GT2/E-cars.
2.) I supposse, they'd predominantely play support act for NASCAR. With the shorter race distamces, it is easy to have their races on NASCAR's raceday, rather than the longer GA races that usually take place on another day of the weekend.
They'd most probably race as a support act at all NASCAR road course events, namely: Watkins Glen, Sonoma, Road America, Montreal and the July Daytona event. All of themwell attended and covered.

It's not people on forums like this that have condemend GA to be a failure, it's the wider public, car enthusiasts, techheads, gamers and such.

The same wider public car enthusiasts, techheads and gamers that deemed the IRL a failure?
And it's funny how all these sites (autoblog, speedhunters, autoextremist just to name a few) all ignore or detest NASCAR, and it's still bigger than all other forms of racing in the US combined.

I've seen quite detailed TV-figures for GA, and they aren't nearly as bad as you'd like to think.

A narrower cockpit here, some stick on headlights there, such thinking shows contempt for the 'modern sports fan'.

And turbo-charged engines, and paddle-shift. When they implement all of that, what differences will be left between a DP and an LMP? Basically just carbon-fibre vs tubeframe, and just judging by the general public's opinion towards DTM, the casual fans don't give a toss about what's underneath the skin of a race car...
The common complaint about the DPs is that they are ugly, changing that would go a long way towards increasing the appeal of the series.

The ALMS is attracting a younger demographic who in this internet age understand the differences between a 908 and a DP or an M3 GTR and a spaceframe RX-8. Thirteen years on from the first Petit Le Mans this younger fanbase is making itself heard and seen, manufactuers and sponsors are taking note.

And yet the series is significantly reducing its network TV-presence, lacks manufacturer entries in the prototype ranks and fails to find even 10.000 people to sign up for their webcasts. Yeah, that's what I'd call success...

[JAG]

I'd like to think top level sportscar racing aspires to something a little more inspirational than fooling the average joe with sticker lights and spec parts.

NASCAR long since ceased to be relevant to car enthusiasts or the motor industry, it's primary purspose these days is to sell goods like cornflakes.

Likewise the DTM has become a marketing jugernaut but it too has lost touch with it's routes and is reliant on manufactuers to keep the series operational.

Sportscar racing is all about brand image and halo cars and you can't fake those things.

The day the ALMS is allowed to run at Daytona and Watkins Glen is the day I'll give GA/NASCAR half a chance. As it stand it seems to me GA exists soley to stifle the ALMS and protect the NASCAR product.

[Canada ALMS fan]

JAG, your last few posts are spot on IMO, and I suspect represent a good percentage of those who watch ALMS/ LMS/ Le Mans. I have nothing against Grand Am and do watch it, but view it as a step down, like glorified club racing. The passion is for F1 and ALMS.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

JAG, your last few posts are spot on IMO, and I suspect represent a good percentage of those who watch ALMS/ LMS/ Le Mans. I have nothing against Grand Am and do watch it, but view it as a step down, like glorified club racing. The passion is for F1 and ALMS.

I watch some GA races as well, but really only when I am not doing anything else. I have never made it a point to be home and watch it or record the broadcast, but I mean it is still road racing at some good tracks, no matter what the cars look like.

I am guessing there are other people around that watch for the same reasons as me, which might explain why GA TV numbers aren't that bad (according to Speed-King's earlier post). But the difference to me is that, while I might glance at the races on TV, there is no way I would buy a ticket and go to a race until the cars appeal to me.

[fiend540]

I used to watch grand am all the time, but you can only watch Scott Pruett win so many times before it becomes boring. "I want to say high to my wife and kids" lol

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by fiend540

I used to watch grand am all the time, but you can only watch Scott Pruett win so many times before it becomes boring. "I want to say high to my wife and kids" lol

Yep, behold the 2010 grand am season:
Daytona 24: Justin Wilson's brainfart costs ganassi the win.
Homestead: ganassi win
Barber: ganassi win
Virginia: ganassi win
Lime rock: first lap ganassi crash, suntrust wins
WG 6 hour: ganassi win
Mid Ohio: boring ganassi win
Daytona nascar support: VERY boring ganassi win
New jersey: ganassi barely second to gainsco, had best car for most of the race.
Watkins glen nascar support: ganassi win
Montreal: ganassi win
Miller: ganassi win despite 3 debris cautions.

The DP class is about as interesting as Audi vs everybody else in the ALMS LMP1 class years back. At least fake gt still provides some interesting moments like montreal this year.

[TF110]

I'm all for G.A. to make their cars be DTM cars. I doubt it'll happen, but if that were the case it could make for some interesting racing, and entertaining as well. DTM cars could potentially be faster than LMP2 cars given the right adjustments and power. Then G.A. could brag they have the fastest race cars in America. Though that won't happen it'd be a good bragging point. IRL is considered the 'fastest' because of the oval's speeds. But in reality they weren't much faster than LMP cars around road tracks in some cases. If DTM were given a boost to a good bit over 500HP they'd demolish LMP times. Same with SuperGT cars. If G.A. really wants to compete they'd adopt these two and combine them to one effort making it an American first type of deal that would bring the two series together overseas as well. Will this or can this even happen though?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by TF110

If G.A. really wants to compete they'd adopt these two and combine them to one effort making it an American first type of deal that would bring the two series together overseas as well. Will this or can this even happen though?

That would be pretty cool if GA somehow organized a SuperGT and DTM combined race in the States - even if it was a one off it would be awesome.

[TF110]

I would say it would be great. I don't think they're in the position to do this though. I wish they were, it'd be great to have both series combined, and have it thanks to G.A.