The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

DSC 'sources', which I assume to mean someone within, or close to, Toyota, suggest the car is some 70bhp down on the Audi. If this is true, do they really think they can run ahead of Audi at Le Mans? Most unlikely!

Saw that too - and was a touch surprised, 70 BHP seems like an awful lot of difference to me - so much so that you almost wonder if it's much of a step beyond the TMG motor in the back of the Rebellions.

Sure the Audi is undeniably powerful - comfortably able to blow past the HPDs on the Kemmel Straight yesterday - both in e-tron and Ultra guises - but to be that far ahead of Toyota at this stage is arresting.

Is it, however, too optimistic of me to think back to early 2007, when first practice at Monza rolled around, and the Charouz Lola was fastest along with conspicuous comments from Peugeot about how at no stage in testing had the car been able to do 1,000 km? Clearly expectation management was in play then - I'm sure most of us would put our hands up to hoping this is what Toyota are doing too.

[alexkiller8]

in my opinion speaking about horsespower, HPD and toyota RVK8 engines can develope more than 550hp (with restrictors), sincerly i thougt that the engine that will be used in the ts030 would get around 600hp too if even restricted could reach 9000 and more rpm. while the updated audi engine with 2012 restrictors i think that has a power output between 550 and 570hp, 600hp reachable only rising a lot the revlimit using more fuel, but really riskfull to do at LM. The better max speed can be because of the power but in my opinion also because the new r18 bodykit that gives less drag than the other cars, but also the michelin tires that audi uses can make the difference (is not a mistery that work teams use better and "customized" tires produced by michelin that better suit for the characteristics of the car; audi won the LM race also because of this).
Will be intersting to compare the max speed obtained at spa in 2011, trying to predict for le mans top speed.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Is it not possible for Vasselon to hide the truth? Other sources have said they've modified their chassis while he claims they haven't.

Given the fact that Vasselon was very open to Laurent Chauveau by providing very detailed information (about the crash, the delay of the new chassis, the new test program, the motivation for the choice of hybrid system, etc.), I see no reason to question his statements.

Why would he be telling that they can fully charge the hybrid system during short braking, while in fact they can?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

Will be intersting to compare the max speed obtained at spa in 2011, trying to predict for le mans top speed.

The max speed of Spa 2011 can be found at http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...Speed_Race.PDF
Audi recorded 305.1 km/h, Peugeot 303.4 km/h, Rebellion 284.2 km/h and Oak 282 km/h.

The max speed of Le Mans 2011 can be found at http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...Speed_Race.PDF
Peugeot recorded 342.9 km/h, Audi 336.4 km/h, Rebellion 319.5 km/h and Oak 322.4 km/h.

[alexkiller8]

i had the le mans .pdf too, thanks for the one of spa.
However i'm not surprised that audi couldn't reach the same top speed of 2011 at spa, surely the same will happen at le mans, i guess that will be around 325-330km/h or something less (or something more if some audi car will be luck to use an usefull air void left by another car during the mulsanne ride).
With the right set-up (and low drag bodywork) i'm sure that oak pescarolo, lola b12/60 will be able to gain some km/h in top speed, touching 325km/h. The dome is an enigma, if they will use a super-extreme setup during qualifying maybe they can pass 330km/h, usefull just for the statistics. Before to read that the ts030 engine can be less powerfull than what i believed, i was thinking that if the engine was a successfull high-rev they could run costantly with a top speed or around 330-335km/h, touching 340km/h too.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

However i'm not surprised that audi couldn't reach the same top speed of 2011 at spa, surely the same will happen at le mans, i guess that will be around 325-330km/h or something less (or something more if some audi car will be luck to use an usefull air void left by another car during the mulsanne ride).

Remember that in 2011 Peugeot suddenly had the upper hand during the race. The Audi drivers tried to explain that by saying that Peugeot added more downforce, whereas Audi was still running with their Le Mans aero.

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

With the right set-up (and low drag bodywork) i'm sure that oak pescarolo, lola b12/60 will be able to gain some km/h in top speed, touching 325km/h. The dome is an enigma, if they will use a super-extreme setup during qualifying maybe they can pass 330km/h, usefull just for the statistics.

Minassian has already said that the Dome can probably hit 320 km/h at Le Mans. See http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...uick_6956.html

[gwyllion]

Buemi and Lapierre are on their way to Spain for the Aragon endurance test.

Originally Posted by @Sebastien_buemi

Off to Barcelona with my Team mate @Nico_Lapierre ! Testing!!! http://pic.twitter.com/z0Hd8P6r

source: http://twitter.com/#!/Sebastien_buem...66406037438464

[TF110]

Down 70hp? If they are serious, that's a big difference. But, maybe they're playing their cards as well. I don't believe everything a team says is gospel. Any team manager can be misleading, for better or worse.

[TF110]

Looks like the whole crew is going- Wurz just tweeted he was on his way to the test as well, http://twitter.com/#!/alex_wurz/stat...03688136146944

[gwyllion]

Like I suspected, Toyota is piggybacking on the test session that DeltaWing had already scheduled at Aragon. They did the same with the Magny Cours test.

Originally Posted by @MFranchitti

Early start, off to (please be) sunny Spain. This early that's about as much as I can say!

Originally Posted by @Lucas_Ordonez

@MFranchitti @alex_wurz @Nissan_OnTrack guys I'm planning to bring my @TrekBikes to Aragon... If you too would be great fun! See you there

[Dario911]

Anyway, Toyota will not be a competitor for Audi, this year. Development of the car is in late, while Audi has tested his new hybrid in race conditions. This makes a great difference, 'cause you'll never have the same situations of a race, in a test. It changes everything.
A lack of 70 hp is a serious gap, but I have never trusted about official declarations... They always tend hide real potential and power of the cars. Only the race will tell us the truth.
But Toyota's hybrid is in late, and I've heard there are some issues in development of the system. So this may be not be recoverable just one month before the big race.
Talking about top speed, I think Audi could go slightly faster than 330 km/h, I suppose 335 km/h, not considering some eventual useful trails.
Toyota will develope the car at its best for the next season, due to the help of the former Pug drivers. It's a great help for jappos, to count on an experienced driver, coming from Pug.
Toyota will play the outsider role. I would not bet on it, and I think this year Le Mans will be boring.
Anyway, I would be glad to see a great performance from Toyota.

[Simmi]

How close are the walls to the track at Aragon? Here's hoping Toyota have a safe test.

[gwyllion]

Marc Gene destroyed one of 908 development cars at Aragon in November 2010. See http://www.lemans.org/en/news/peugeo...cuit_2402.html

[Dario911]

Gené is the worst driver Audi could get by Pug!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Gené is the worst driver Audi could get by Pug!

That crash in testing was not Gene's fault. It was the result of a technical failure.

Gene was brilliant this weekend. His switch to slick tyres, was one of the main reasons why the #3 won the race.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Gené is the worst driver Audi could get by Pug!

In their situation Gene was one of the best guys out there for Audi to pick up. As gwyllion says their decision was vindicated by his performance in Spa. He's surely had a fraction of testing of the other drivers but he was on pace.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

That crash in testing was not Gene's fault. It was the result of a technical failure.

Gene was brilliant this weekend. His switch to slick tyres, was one of the main reasons why the #3 won the race.

I saw the race and you are absolutely right, Gene made the difference ( when he put slicks).

Do you really believe that Audi have more 70bhp than Toyota? Assuming a 560 to 590 bhp to Audi, will Toyota only have 490 to 520 bhp???? I don´t believe in that. Even if Audi are close to 600-610 bhp Toyota only have 530-540 bhp!!!!

Well lets await for performance break by ACO, (Toyota will not have any break because they don´t race right?), will the Audi's slow down, or the others will have a boost?

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Remember that in 2011 Peugeot suddenly had the upper hand during the race. The Audi drivers tried to explain that by saying that Peugeot added more downforce, whereas Audi was still running with their Le Mans aero.

what exactly do you mean with upper hand? starting from the night after the 2h of safety car, the race became a tyre war, audi found the best situation during the night for tyres starting running each lap in 3.26-3.27 with the best lap marked faster than pole position timelap, starting to run in 3.28-3.30 only after the dawn (basicly the same thah happened in 2010 for peugeot); then during the rain in the morning and in the semi-wet scenario, peugeot started to have the best pace regaining all the gap that audi built during the night.

[gwyllion]

I was referring to Spa 2011 Audi dominated the practice sessions and toke pole, but in the race they suffered (mainly because of tyre management issues).

[alexkiller8]

ah well yes, i agree, peugeot used an insane strategy during the qualifying but was undefeatable during the race. Still remember the first stint of wurz.
The r18 had some electronic problem too, capello ran from the end of blanchimon until the radillion with the limiter inserted (not by him).

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I posted the top speed of Spa in the Dome topic. Audi recorded a top speed of 300 km/h while Rebellion with its customer TMG engine could only do 280 km/h. That must the result of a big power advantage, and maybe a bit better aero, for the Audi.

I found out that detailed timing information of the race can be downloaded at http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Res...lysis_Race.CSV. Using that data, I quickly calculated the top speed of every LMP1 car during the race (median of last 100 laps).

• Audi #1: 295.1 km/h
• Audi #2: 293.5 km/h
• Audi #3: 297.5 km/h
• Audi #4: 296.7 km/h
• Rebellion #12: 272.0 km/h
• Rebellion #13: 274.1 km/h
• Oak #15: 267.3 km/h
• Dome #17: 278.4 km/h
• Strakka HPD #21: 272.0 km/h
• JRM HPD #22: 282.7 km/h

[Adam43]

Thanks for that It is a useful advantage and not all down to set-up. It is explained by some of that 70hp.

[alexkiller8]

this disadvantage of 70hp is suspicious, because also thinking that the audi engine meanwhile the 2012 shorter restrictors and less pression boost can reach 600hp (but i think that realisticly is something more than 550hp, around 570hp un my opinion). The RVK8 that is currently used this year in GT500 can develope around 530-540hp with 2x30.3 restrictors according to 2012 regulamentation changes, knowing that the updated RVK8LM engine use 2x30.6 restrictors is easy to think that at least 550hp are achieved by that engine. I don't know if spec of the new engine that will power the ts030 have been released but i guess that toyota is going to develope a better engine for the official car than the one used by a customer; so if we add at least 550 + 70, we can assume that audi engine can develope 620hp ?
is hard to believe that a heavy restricted 3.7 TDI engine can develope a poweroutput comparable to the one developed by their old spec 5.5 v10.

[Dario911]

My opinion about Gené is not for his crash in testing, but for his fair play. He was trying to get out Audis past season.
Anyway I would have preferred Bourdais. Still I don't understand why Brabham is not yet considered as a serious candidate by Audi. He was one of the best in old Pug formation.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Dario911

My opinion about Gené is not for his crash in testing, but for his fair play. He was trying to get out Audis past season.
Anyway I would have preferred Bourdais. Still I don't understand why Brabham is not yet considered as a serious candidate by Audi. He was one of the best in old Pug formation.

Not fast enough. Safe but slow.