[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TF110]

I wonder if they (Rebellion) will pursue their own hybrid solution.

[deggis]

In 2014, a mechanism will be implemented to control the fuel consumption of the LMP1s. A quantity, usable per lap in all cases, will be defined on the base of the Le Mans 24-Hours circuit depending on the engine used. Fuel consumption will be calculated in permanence on an average of three laps. If it exceeds the quantity allocated, sanctions will be applied, the system of which is currently under study.

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/the-en...ated_1419.html

[broadrun96]

At least they give them three laps in the event consumption is high on one lap heavy with passing. But could see this leading to passes if the leader has to conserve on the third lap to avoid whatever penalty they dream up.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Draft V08 of the 2014 regulations as approved by the WSC on September 27th, has been published on the FIA website.

[MyNameIsNigel]

We now get an idea of how the mandatory fuel flow meters could possibly be installed in the survival cell as required by the rules. This is apparently the installation recommended by the fuel flow meter manufacturer (Gill Sensors):

[ger80]

RaceTech reports that these sensors still have a lot of issues. F1 seems to be looking for a backup plan in case they dont work when the season starts

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by ger80

RaceTech reports that these sensors still have a lot of issues. F1 seems to be looking for a backup plan in case they dont work when the season starts

They indeed still seem to have issues, but this recent article from motorsport-total.com would appear to suggest that work is progressing reasonably well. We will have to wait and see I guess.

[MoMedic9019]

I have a number of issues with the fuel flow sensors. The primary being, it's likely very easy to build a simulator that will accurately depict fuel flows to the FIA data logger while the engine is just getting fed whatever the engineers need.

Second, if it fails the rules state it may need to be changed out. What? May need to be changed? Okay, well, if I'm Audi, I'm going to figure out how to disable it, especially if I don't have to change it. And they have no idea how to penalize excessive consumption.

Imagine, 10min to go at LM, Toyota or Porsche is coming hard for the win, suddenly the fuel flow sensors fail and they cannot measure usage.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I have a number of issues with the fuel flow sensors. The primary being, it's likely very easy to build a simulator that will accurately depict fuel flows to the FIA data logger while the engine is just getting fed whatever the engineers need.

Second, if it fails the rules state it may need to be changed out. What? May need to be changed? Okay, well, if I'm Audi, I'm going to figure out how to disable it, especially if I don't have to change it. And they have no idea how to penalize excessive consumption.

Imagine, 10min to go at LM, Toyota or Porsche is coming hard for the win, suddenly the fuel flow sensors fail and they cannot measure usage.

Motorsport total is saying they will require 2 or 3 installed just in case one happens to fail. Its sad because it'll add weight and compromise packaging.

[MoMedic9019]

I did see that, doesn't mean as the race goes on they just switch them off.

Just so much grey area...

[TF110]

Theyre not controlled by the teams. Im positive theyll have a seal of some sort or a type of monitoring system.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...cus-21174.html

Judd making new LMP1 engine based off of their current V8, expanded to 4.4L

[ger80]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...cus-21174.html

Judd making new LMP1 engine based off of their current V8, expanded to 4.4L

That's great news

[Félix]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I did see that, doesn't mean as the race goes on they just switch them off.

Just so much grey area...

They'll probably test them just like they test intake air restrictors. You know, the stall test; if the engine can still run when the air restricted is choked, you lose. I seem to remember a few upsets like an Acura at Sebring and of course frequent problems with fuel cells proving just a bit too big after a long race. But they only test the podium-winning cars, right?

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Seriously? 6% drop in tank size vs. a 12% drop shouldnt be compared? Everyone knows the diesel fuel is favored. Its volumetric energy density is some 11% higher than Petrol! Somewhere around 38.5MJ per Liter compared to 32.18 for petrol. Not to mention the economy difference.

You appear to be blinded by the tank size and volumetric energy density of the two fuel types

Please look at the fuel energy allocation instead:

• petrol (no hybrid): 150.8 MJ/lap
• diesel (no hybrid): 142.1 MJ/lap

source: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...2013-FINAL.pdf

The amount of fuel that petrol powered cars will be allowed to use every lap, will contain more energy! So the rules clearly acknowlegdes that petrol engines are less efficient than diesel engines. In fact, this is the "Fuel Technology Factor" from the table in appendix B. Diesel engines will have to be 6.1% more efficient than petrol engines in order to compensate for the lower fuel energy allocation.

How this translates into liters of fuel per lap, depends on the precise chemical characteristics of the fuels used next year. Note that in 2014 the petrol fuel will consist of 20% biomass (i.e., bioethanol).

Earlier drafts on the 2014 rules contained to following numbers for the two fuel types:

• petrol: 0.756 kg/l and 39.55 MJ/kg
• diesel: 0.832 kg/l and 42.31 MJ/kg

If you use these numbers, you can compute the maximum fuel consumption per lap:

• petrol: 150.8 MJ/lap / 39.55 MJ/kg / 0.756 kg/l = 5.04 l/lap
• diesel: 142.1 MJ/lap / 42.31 MJ/kg / 0.832 kg/l = 4.04 l/lap

The fuel tank will be 66.9 liter for petrol and 54.8 liter for diesel. From this, you can calculate the corresponding stint lengths:

• petrol: 66.9 l / 5.04 l/lap = 13.3 laps
• diesel: 54.8 l / 4.04 l/lap = 13.6 laps

So both fuel types can do 13 lap stints and diesel engines will have to be more efficient! That seems reasonable to me

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

How this translates into liters of fuel per lap, depends on the precise chemical characteristics of the fuels used next year. Note that in 2014 the petrol fuel will consist of 20% biomass (i.e., bioethanol).

Earlier drafts on the 2014 rules contained to following numbers for the two fuel types:

• petrol: 0.756 kg/l and 39.55 MJ/kg
• diesel: 0.832 kg/l and 42.31 MJ/kg

BTW, have the fuel characteristics been in effect frozen for 2014 ? I seem to recall that the fuel characteristics had to be determined by the end of 2012 according to earlier drafts of the 2014 Technical Regulations.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You appear to be blinded by the tank size and volumetric energy density of the two fuel types

Please look at the fuel energy allocation instead:

• petrol (no hybrid): 150.8 MJ/lap
• diesel (no hybrid): 142.1 MJ/lap

source: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...2013-FINAL.pdf

The amount of fuel that petrol powered cars will be allowed to use every lap, will contain more energy! So the rules clearly acknowlegdes that petrol engines are less efficient than diesel engines. In fact, this is the "Fuel Technology Factor" from the table in appendix B. Diesel engines will have to be 6.1% more efficient than petrol engines in order to compensate for the lower fuel energy allocation.

How this translates into liters of fuel per lap, depends on the precise chemical characteristics of the fuels used next year. Note that in 2014 the petrol fuel will consist of 20% biomass (i.e., bioethanol).

Earlier drafts on the 2014 rules contained to following numbers for the two fuel types:

• petrol: 0.756 kg/l and 39.55 MJ/kg
• diesel: 0.832 kg/l and 42.31 MJ/kg

If you use these numbers, you can compute the maximum fuel consumption per lap:

• petrol: 150.8 MJ/lap / 39.55 MJ/kg / 0.756 kg/l = 5.04 l/lap
• diesel: 142.1 MJ/lap / 42.31 MJ/kg / 0.832 kg/l = 4.04 l/lap

The fuel tank will be 66.9 liter for petrol and 54.8 liter for diesel. From this, you can calculate the corresponding stint lengths:

• petrol: 66.9 l / 5.04 l/lap = 13.3 laps
• diesel: 54.8 l / 4.04 l/lap = 13.6 laps

So both fuel types can do 13 lap stints and diesel engines will have to be more efficient! That seems reasonable to me

Very interesting! Yawn! Fact is Diesels have more torque power, which losses them less time in traffic, fact! 'Toyota' are comitted to Clean Environmental Hybrid Technology, good for them...I'm looking forward to some 'proper' petrol racing engine racing between Toyota and Porsche, I'm ignoring the Tractors!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by TF110

If they dont get screwed by the regulations they shouldn't have a problem winning like 2012. The thing that interests me is the % drop in fuel allowance. Not taking into consideration the fuel flow but just the tank size, theres a slightly bigger drop in tank size for petrol compared to diesel. Petrol of 66.9L to 54.8L for Diesel. Compared to now with 73(76)L Petrol to 58L Diesel. The Petrol cars have 88% the amount of fuel (compared to 76L) while Diesel has 94% (compared to 58L).

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You appear to be blinded by the tank size and volumetric energy density of the two fuel types

Youre joking, right? Seems you have selective reading. I bolded the part of my comment that says NOT taking into consideration the fuel flow, JUST the tank size. BTW I quoted figures of fuel efficiency as well, but lets entertain that thought later...

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Please look at the fuel energy allocation instead:

• petrol (no hybrid): 150.8 MJ/lap
• diesel (no hybrid): 142.1 MJ/lap

source: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...2013-FINAL.pdf

The amount of fuel that petrol powered cars will be allowed to use every lap, will contain more energy! So the rules clearly acknowlegdes that petrol engines are less efficient than diesel engines. In fact, this is the "Fuel Technology Factor" from the table in appendix B. Diesel engines will have to be 6.1% more efficient than petrol engines in order to compensate for the lower fuel energy allocation.

Oh, is that all? "6.1% more efficient"? Thats achieved already! Theyre more than 20% more fuel efficient going by this year's #'s! I guess you just focused on the post where I stated the volumetric energy density being 11% higher for diesel?

Originally Posted by gwyllion

How this translates into liters of fuel per lap, depends on the precise chemical characteristics of the fuels used next year. Note that in 2014 the petrol fuel will consist of 20% biomass (i.e., bioethanol).

Earlier drafts on the 2014 rules contained to following numbers for the two fuel types:

• petrol: 0.756 kg/l and 39.55 MJ/kg
• diesel: 0.832 kg/l and 42.31 MJ/kg

If you use these numbers, you can compute the maximum fuel consumption per lap:

• petrol: 150.8 MJ/lap / 39.55 MJ/kg / 0.756 kg/l = 5.04 l/lap
• diesel: 142.1 MJ/lap / 42.31 MJ/kg / 0.832 kg/l = 4.04 l/lap

The fuel tank will be 66.9 liter for petrol and 54.8 liter for diesel. From this, you can calculate the corresponding stint lengths:

• petrol: 66.9 l / 5.04 l/lap = 13.3 laps
• diesel: 54.8 l / 4.04 l/lap = 13.6 laps

So both fuel types can do 13 lap stints and diesel engines will have to be more efficient! That seems reasonable to me

Right. Those are non hybrid numbers. So lets figure out the ers options first then we can compare what the allowance is. So far its just your #'s of non hybrid 2014 allowance. If we go by this year its 4.46L/ per lap diesel in 2013 vs. 4.04 next year. 5.84L/ per lap this year petrol vs. 5.04 next year.

If we do %'s it comes to be 90.5% of their usage for diesel difference. And 86.3% of their usage for petrol difference. So the efficiency is looking easier for Diesel to meet compared to Petrol.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Youre joking, right? Seems you have selective reading. I bolded the part of my comment that says NOT taking into consideration the fuel flow, JUST the tank size. BTW I quoted figures of fuel efficiency as well, but lets entertain that thought later...

You continue to be heavily confused. There are 3 important restrictions in the table of appendix B:

1. Energy allocation per lap: restricts the amount of fuel, expressed in MJ, that can be used every lap. This can be transformed in amount of fuel in kg or liter, so it gives a restriction on the average fuel consumption.
2. Maximum fuel flow: directly restricts the peak power output of the engine.
3. Fuel tank capacity: restricts the stint length (in combination with the energy allocation).

You complained about the fuel tank size (restriction 3) and mentioned "not taking into consideration the fuel flow" (restriction 2). I pointed out that fuel allocation (restriction 1) is more restricted for diesels and that the fuel tank size gives the fuel type the same stint length.
Nowhere did I talk about the maximum fuel flow! What makes this "selective reading"?

Originally Posted by TF110

Oh, is that all? "6.1% more efficient"? Thats achieved already! Theyre more than 20% more fuel efficient going by this year's #'s!

Where do you get this "more than 20% more fuel efficient"?

I am talking about (average) energy efficiency!

Fuel allocation in energy (explicitely in rule book):

• petrol: 150.8 MJ/lap
• diesel: 142.1 MJ/lap
• difference: 150.8 / 142.1 = 1.06 -> 6%

Fuel allocation in mass (estimated based on assumed fuel characteristics):

• petrol: 3.81 kg/lap
• diesel: 3.36 l/lap
• difference: 3.81 / 3.36 = 1.14 -> 14%

Fuel allocation in volume (estimated based on assumed fuel characteristics):

• petrol: 5.04 l/lap
• diesel: 4.04 l/lap
• difference: 5.04 / 4.04 = 1.25 -> 25%

[TF110]

I'd like you to stop calling me confused. You changed the subject to those 3 restrictions. I was talking about tge tank size only. Sorry I'm not discussing the same points as you. That does not make me confused. We all know where the diesel stands in terms of energy and efficiency per liter or weight. So your talking points with numbers are nothing that hasn't been addressed. If you want to go further into detail I will respond to you in another thread.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

I'd like you to stop calling me confused. You changed the subject to those 3 restrictions. I was talking about tge tank size only. Sorry I'm not discussing the same points as you. That does not make me confused. We all know where the diesel stands in terms of energy and efficiency per liter or weight. So your talking points with numbers are nothing that hasn't been addressed. If you want to go further into detail I will respond to you in another thread.

Honestly, TF110, you started discussing / comparing diesel and petrol in terms of the fuel tank capacity, which is only one variable in the entire equation. You can draw the conclusions you like as regards the % drop in "fuel allowance", but gwyllion has made a very valid point by demonstrating that you should rather look at the entire picture. What's your conclusion then ? Should the petrol cars (whether it be hybrids or non-hybrids) get a larger fuel tank capacity and therefore be allowed to make longer stints ? Would that create a (more) balanced situation under the new rules ? I don't believe so. It would just create "confusion" as a matter of fact, much like what is the case under the current rules where petrol cars benefit of too large a fuel tank capacity compared to diesels.

And BTW, should we just leave your posts unanswered so that we do not get into "confusion" talks over and over ? Do you allow people to challenge your thoughts and conclusions and thereby enrich the discussion ? I would hope so, that's the purpose of the forum, isn't it ?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Honestly, TF110, you started discussing / comparing diesel and petrol in terms of the fuel tank capacity, which is only one variable in the entire equation. You can draw the conclusions you like as regards the % drop in "fuel allowance", but gwyllion has made a very valid point by demonstrating that you should rather look at the entire picture. What's your conclusion then ? Should the petrol cars (whether it be hybrids or non-hybrids) get a larger fuel tank capacity and therefore be allowed to make longer stints ? Would that create a (more) balanced situation under the new rules ? I don't believe so. It would just create "confusion" as a matter of fact, much like what is the case under the current rules where petrol cars benefit of too large a fuel tank capacity compared to diesels.

And BTW, should we just leave your posts unanswered so that we do not get into "confusion" talks over and over ? Do you allow people to challenge your thoughts and conclusions and thereby enrich the discussion ? I would hope so, that's the purpose of the forum, isn't it ?

I said I would discuss it in another thread. I brought up the tank size for a reason. The disparity between the two fuels in size of the tank is shrinking in difference compared to this year. If you have something to add concerning the tank size speak about it to my point. Don't bring up other things saying Im ignoring them if I specified one aspect. Dont call me confused. Dont say Im ignoring things. I only pointed out one area. If you want to talk about that or more we should do it in the lmp future regs thread and I'll respond there.

[TF110]

Since there was some talk on the disparity between the fuels for next year, I think this would be an appropriate place to discuss the petrol and diesel in the 2014 rules.

So my concerns are the tank size for starters. Aside from other talking points lets start off with that...

Diesel tank capacity is 54.8 liters in 2014 vs. 58 liters currently. Petrol is 66.9 liters vs. 76 liters currently. My point in bringing this up wasn't to discuss the other aspects in the fuel flow or energy allocations. Just the effect of the tank size. Diesel fuel has a weight of around .83kg per liter. Petrol weighs .75kg per liter. The math equates to 45.5kg of diesel on board vs. 50.2kg petrol on board.

Now we have to figure what this means in regards to how the efficiency of this fuel can be used in conjunction with the other aspects of the fuel technology factor. It would be interesting to see the differences in how the ACO handled this in their ruling on track. Taking into account the lighter weight of the diesel but less overall absolute power in terms of MJ per lap.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

I said I would discuss it in another thread. I brought up the tank size for a reason. The disparity between the two fuels in size of the tank is shrinking in difference compared to this year. If you have something to add concerning the tank size speak about it to my point. Don't bring up other things saying Im ignoring them if I specified one aspect. Dont call me confused. Dont say Im ignoring things. I only pointed out one area. If you want to talk about that or more we should do it in the lmp future regs thread and I'll respond there.

Fine with me then. Let's enrich the discussion in the other thread.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Since there was some talk on the disparity between the fuels for next year, I think this would be an appropriate place to discuss the petrol and diesel in the 2014 rules.

So my concerns are the tank size for starters. Aside from other talking points lets start off with that...

Diesel tank capacity is 54.8 liters in 2014 vs. 58 liters currently. Petrol is 66.9 liters vs. 76 liters currently. My point in bringing this up wasn't to discuss the other aspects in the fuel flow or energy allocations. Just the effect of the tank size. Diesel fuel has a weight of around .83kg per liter. Petrol weighs .75kg per liter. The math equates to 45.5kg of diesel on board vs. 50.2kg petrol on board.

Now we have to figure what this means in regards to how the efficiency of this fuel can be used in conjunction with the other aspects of the fuel technology factor. It would be interesting to see the differences in how the ACO handled this in their ruling on track. Taking into account the lighter weight of the diesel but less overall absolute power in terms of MJ per lap.

First point:

IMHO, there is no point in comparing 2013 with 2014 in terms of the fuel tank capacity. The fuel tank capacity for petrol hybrids (76l) has been "artificially" increased as part of the LMP1 Adjustments of Performance (AoP) in order to try to "balance" the various technologies performance-wise. As you know very well, the 2014 rules are based on a fundamentally different principle and approach, i.e. ensuring that all competitors are on equal footing in terms of energy allocation, irrespective of the type of fuel and hybrid solution they are using. Under the new rules, fuel tank capacity is only one variable in a "complex" equation (well... not so complex to say it frankly). You can compare 2013 with 2014 if you like, and indeed draw the conclusion that petrol cars "suffer" from a more substantial drop in "fuel allowance" compared to 2013, but this is pointless. You need to look at the whole picture under the new rules.

Second point:

One HAS to look at the whole picture under the new rules. To take your own words "we have to figure what this means in regards to how the efficiency of this fuel can be used in conjunction with the other aspects of the fuel technology factor". I am a bit confused by the formulation "(...) how the efficiency of this fuel can be used (...)", but I understand that you are basically referring to fuel efficiency of the two types of fuel and drawing a link to the so-called "Fuel Technology Factor" under the new rules, which is a function of the ratio of diesel over petrol efficiencies.

The starting hypothesis under the new rules is therefore fuel efficiency, the targeted fuel efficiency for petrol being of the order of 41.3%, whereas the targeted fuel efficiency for diesel is of the order of 43.9% (NB: it used to be of the order of 43.6% as per the previous drafts of the rules, but the "Fuel Technology Factor" has since then been increased from 1.055 to 1.061). This is the determining starting factor ensuring the "balance" between diesel and petrol fuels.

Everything else flows from that, in particular the fuel energy allocation per lap as per Appendix B of the 2014 Technical Regulations (Draft V08) for each type of hybrid solution (0MJ to 8MJ) As far as fuel tank capacity is concerned, the figures indicated in Appendix B (66.9l for petrol / 54.8 for diesel) basically determine the stint length, that's it (see gwyllion's post for reference).

In other words, different fuel tank capacity figures would imply a DIFFERENT starting hypothesis in terms of fuel efficiency. You cannot look at this variable (i.e. fuel tank capacity) in isolation.