[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't think Barrichello ever stood a chance of winning the WDC. though he did go on to win 4 GPs and finish second in the WDC that year. Bottas didn't win a single race in 2018, though ironically, he won in Russia the previous year. Interestingly, both Bottas and Barrichelo got pole in those races.

He may not have stood a chance, or more likely not allowed to stand a chance. Again....6th race in, you impose team orders like that....THATS why it’s far worse than Russia

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

He may not have stood a chance, or more likely not allowed to stand a chance. Again....6th race in, you impose team orders like that....THATS why it’s far worse than Russia

Up until Russia there were still six races to go. I think Austria 2002 and Russia 2018 are as bad as each other.

The purpose of the decision, was to increase the points difference for the driver leading the championship and I don't think when that decision is made, during the course of season, makes it worse or better, except maybe if such a decision were made at the last race of the season.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Up until Russia there were still six races to go. I think Austria 2002 and Russia 2018 are as bad as each other.

The purpose of the decision, was to increase the points difference for the driver leading the championship and I don't think when that decision is made, during the course of season, makes it worse or better, except maybe if such a decision were made at the last race of the season.

Of course it makes a difference.

Taking away the chances of a driver winning the championship 6 races in while your other driver has a 2 race advantage is far worse than asking a driver out of the championship fight 16 races in to give a position to a driver in a championship fight with another team.

Anyway I’m done trying to convince you. Seems like I’m hitting my head against a brick wall with this one

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Of course it makes a difference.

Taking away the chances of a driver winning the championship 6 races in while your other driver has a 2 race advantage is far worse than asking a driver out of the championship fight 16 races in to give a position to a driver in a championship fight with another team.

Anyway I’m done trying to convince you. Seems like I’m hitting my head against a brick wall with this one

How does it take away a driver's chances six races in, when there are another eleven races to go?

No,you're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you either, so best leave it here.

[ascarracinguk]

Because it’s clear that when you implement team orders 6 races into a championship with ZERO threat from other teams, you’ve shown the world that you’re not going to allow them to win the championship

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Because it’s clear that when you implement team orders 6 races into a championship with ZERO threat from other teams, you’ve shown the world that you’re not going to allow them to win the championship

Schumacher had a 21 point lead over Montoya and Ferrari were 7 points ahead of Williams, going into the Austrian GP. With eleven races to go, I don't call that a zero threat.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Schumacher had a 21 point lead over Montoya and Ferrari were 7 points ahead of Williams, going into the Austrian GP. With eleven races to go, I don't call that a zero threat.

2 clear race wins AFTER 5 RACES......

....and you say it’s the same as 1 win clear after 16.

Beggars belief.

I’m out

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

2 clear race wins AFTER 5 RACES......

....and you say it’s the same as 1 win clear after 16.

Beggars belief.

I’m out

2 clear race wins after only 5 races and with another 12 to go? Early days and does not guarantee winning the WDC.

[S griffin]

Yes there was still a chance Barrichello could have won the title

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes there was still a chance Barrichello could have won the title

There were eleven races remaining after Austria.

[chunterer]

Moving sideways a bit, who or what was Hamilton trying to convince yesterday when he espoused the virtues of great driver teamwork at Mercedes and saying Red Bull have a really good car and aren't making the most of it with both their cars?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Moving sideways a bit, who or what was Hamilton trying to convince yesterday when he espoused the virtues of great driver teamwork at Mercedes and saying Red Bull have a really good car and aren't making the most of it with both their cars?

Is there enough feedback from the second car to support Max, or are all the setup decisions and testing up to Max with the other car just a parasitic copy of Max's input?
I'd say is what Hamilton is driving at, but then he is just probably trying to sow the seeds of discord at RBR and ensure that Max and Alex don't work together as they should.

Given that Bottas was .511 secs off Hamilton in quali and Albon was .468 secs off Max, I think the situation is just as dire at Mercedes, but then Lulu is happy with that!

[Adam43]

But that’s not a fair reflection of the situation. On lap time Bottas is generally very close to Hamilton, indeed he is known to out qualifying Hamilton every so often. That is not the same for Verstappen’s team mates since Ricciardo who practically never out qualify him and are consistently several tenths off. It is very different in reality. Spa was anomaly from a qualifying lap time perspective.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

But that’s not a fair reflection of the situation. On lap time Bottas is generally very close to Hamilton, indeed he is known to out qualifying Hamilton every so often. That is not the same for Verstappen’s team mates since Ricciardo who practically never out qualify him and are consistently several tenths off. It is very different in reality. Spa was anomaly from a qualifying lap time perspective.

Why do you say Spa was anomaly from a qualifying lap time perspective?

[Adam43]

Bottas is never normally that far behind Hamilton in Q3. So far this year the gaps have been
-0.0, 1.4 (rain), 0.1, 0.3, -0.1, 0.1, 0.5. Minus means Bottas was ahead.

Where as Verstappen to Albon has been 0.4, 0.5 (rain), 0.7 (Q2, Albon didn’t make it to Q3), 0.4 (Q2 same reason), 0.5, 0.7, 0.5.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Bottas is never normally that far behind Hamilton in Q3. So far this year the gaps have been
-0.0, 1.4 (rain), 0.1, 0.3, -0.1, 0.1, 0.5. Minus means Bottas was ahead.

Where as Verstappen to Albon has been 0.4, 0.5 (rain), 0.7 (Q2, Albon didn’t make it to Q3), 0.4 (Q2 same reason), 0.5, 0.7, 0.5.

At the time, I was surprised Bottas ended up that far behind Hamilton, and though I wasn't paying as much attention to Albon and Verstappen during qualifying, those figures are equally surprising. Was that down to choice of tyre?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Indeed

And let’s not forget Red Bull arent short of a few quid. Given their owners net worth, Theres no reason they couldn’t have a bigger budget than Merc

F1 isn’t just about money, it’s having the right team and personnel

And RB shooting themselves in the foot when it comes to drivers and their driver program. personally I would not work for Marko if you paid me as much as Vestappen is getting and that is most probably why Ricciardo decided to get out. Mercedes should run a course to teach other teams how to manage and build team structures properly and not have loose cannons like Marko yelling at people who don't measure up to his standards which most probably aren't that high anyway. He single handed (so it was reported) alienated MB to the point that they would not supply RB with PU's, it might have taken a few years but he succeeded quite well at doing that.

Team work and the team being a good place to work is the absolute rock that needs to be in place to win. McLaren is a shining example of this, it is obvious that Zac Brown is someone who is liked by everyone and the team has flourished under his management. All the money in the world won't create a win, Toyota and Honda proved that.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Bottas is never normally that far behind Hamilton in Q3. So far this year the gaps have been
-0.0, 1.4 (rain), 0.1, 0.3, -0.1, 0.1, 0.5. Minus means Bottas was ahead.

It could be that Bottas was running to the new mapping rules as a trial against their normal mapping that Hamilton was using. Mercedes are very proactive to stuff like this and them doing that would be a natural thing to try.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

But that’s not a fair reflection of the situation. On lap time Bottas is generally very close to Hamilton, indeed he is known to out qualifying Hamilton every so often. That is not the same for Verstappen’s team mates since Ricciardo who practically never out qualify him and are consistently several tenths off. It is very different in reality. Spa was anomaly from a qualifying lap time perspective.

No actual argument here, but Hamilton is just trying to cause trouble.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

At the time, I was surprised Bottas ended up that far behind Hamilton, and though I wasn't paying as much attention to Albon and Verstappen during qualifying, those figures are equally surprising. Was that down to choice of tyre?

There might be some examples of Verstappen being on the slower tyre in Q2 and getting through unlike Albon! Although I can’t remember if that happened at those two races.

As it is Q3 comparison no tyre differences between Bottas and Hamilton.

Originally Posted by Casper

It could be that Bottas was running to the new mapping rules as a trial against their normal mapping that Hamilton was using. Mercedes are very proactive to stuff like this and them doing that would be a natural thing to try.

I don’t think so. They could test that at other times, in fact that is more normal running. And they give both drivers the same chance.

I do agree that Mercedes will be well ahead of the change though.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

No actual argument here, but Hamilton is just trying to cause trouble.

Eh?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Regarding MB's rejection of Bottas using a different engine mode (presumably more juicy). Hamilton would be able to use the same modes to defend his position, but it changes the context of the racing.

Hamilton coulduse a similar beefy engine mode to defend his position, but he may not necessarily do so. If he doesn't and Bottas closes in, Bottas can then take advantage of any error Hamilton makes (Like he did at the chicane), or that moment of power loss. Once he's in the lead, then he can manage the engine. It also changes who has the better treatment in pit stops (In theory).

Then if Hamilton does match Bottas' request for engine modes and the positions remain static, then that's still better for Bottas. It means Hamilton's engines run harder and increases the possibility of a blown engine, which Bottas could take advantage of.

Even if the situation occurs that Bottas blows his engine, but Hamilton's doesn't, that is still better for Bottas. He'll still finish 2nd or 3rd in the title, ut he can point to car failures.

As it stands, Bottas has to run a car tailored for Hamilton. He isn't allowed to be more aggressive, and never get the benefit of possible alternative pit strategies (whereas Hamilton has).

Bottas doesn't get paid to win. He gets paid to do the minimum, sacrifice his performances and results, and put up with fans diminishing him. That's why he keeps getting a contract.

I thought this was common knowledge?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I’m not saying I agreed with it....but they were in a championship fight with a decent Ferrari with Bottas out of the championship fight.

Obviously we don't know each other and I'm new. But having followed the ebb and flow of the thread and your exchanges with bjohnsonsmith. It seems you're saying that Bottas sacrificing the 2018 Russian GP is the same as Hamilton handing back 3rd place at the 2017 Hungarian GP.

You also suggested Hamilton returned the favour last year. Which race was this?

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Far worse things have happened from within red bull and Ferrari over the last few years in terms of team orders

Aside from Austria in 2002, I can't think of anything more blatant and unnecessary.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Eh?

Posts #286 & 7 above Ayse.

[Aysedasi]

Not exactly 'trying to cause trouble' though is it. Statements like that from drivers about rivals are ten-a-penny...