[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[Gingers4Justice]

I guess this also comes down to how you define a "manufacturer." Is it considered a new entity if they build a GR 020 and badge it a Lexus? Or is this based on where the car is assembled?

[Pandamasque]

I don't think physical place of manufacture plays any role in the matter. But perhaps the legal entity filing homologation papers (or owning the IP) does.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Mike E

19.1 Principles
A car Manufacturer may homologate a maximum of two cars during the five championship seasons (from January 2021
until December 2025) and both homologations will be valid until December 2025

19.1.1 Modifications to the original homologation may be done for the following reasons:
a) Safety, reliability, serviceability, end-of-commercialisation or cost saving
b) Performance

19.1.3 Modifications requested for performance reasons:
Must respect the following conditions:
• No more than 5 Evolution extensions (EVO jokers) per manufacturer allowed from January 2021 until
December 2025, regardless of the number of different homologations.
• An EVO joker equals whatever modification within the perimeter of each chapter of the relevant
homologation form.
• Requested according to the calendar set in Article 19.6.2.
• According to the applicable homologation procedure.
• Applications must provide all necessary supporting information including the targeted performance
improvement, its evolution and, if relevant, an updated datasheet.
• If the FIA/ACO is satisfied, in its absolute discretion, that these changes are acceptable and in line with the
BoP process, they will confirm to the manufacturer concerned that they may be carried out.

Much thanks. So 5 jokers and two different homologations. Thats a decent number. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a difference in the Toyotas next season. Maybe even the Glickenhaus will take advantage of this at some point.

[S griffin]

That’s nice to know. I’m sure Toyota will find a way around it as best they can. How much will longer will they go on for though? And yes Glickenhaus could be in the pound seats should anything happen to Toyota

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Best car magazine (Japanese car gossip magazine) is reporting that Toyota will withdraw from WEC by this year because GR010 Hybrid had burnt down in Fuji test.
(No other source has confirmed that the GR010 has been tested at Fuji.)
https://twitter.com/M_simacher/statu...75393639346178

Racer reported a few days ago and referring to Japanese media that the Super Sport road car program might have been shelved. (And since the story has been picked up by every car news/blog site, most of them probably more or less clueless about the regs). The burndown at Fuji was apparently true but it was the Super Sport.

https://racer.com/2021/08/03/toyota-...am-derailment/

[WyldStallion]

New livery aside, what changes if any you think if any can be made to improve the looks of the Toyota GR 10?

[Adam43]

Maybe they could make it more like a GT car?

That is code for I think it is a wired question!

[joeb]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

New livery aside, what changes if any you think if any can be made to improve the looks of the Toyota GR 10?

I think it looks pretty good already. But if i could do one thing, i would say making it a Le Mans winner would improve the looks.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

I think it looks pretty good already. But if i could do one thing, i would say making it a Le Mans winner would improve the looks.

That sums it up nicely

[Pandamasque]

Here's a thought.

What we know or can surmise from reasonably reliable sources:
- GR010 doesn't quite perform as expected
- GR010's looks weren't very well received by the public, expecting it to look more like a hypercar
- Peugeot unveiled a competitor that's a total gamechanger, at least in terms of presentation and image. What if most LMH/LMDh brands put this much emphasis on that?!
- a prototype of GR010's road car sibling burned down during testing

All of the factors above are nudging Toyota in the direction of a more radical redesign both on the LMH and the road hypercar front. Whereas the LMH car seems to need troubleshooting and an extensive image change, IMO. the road car can be almost a clean sheet design that's only stylistically aligned with the updated LMH design. I don't buy that losing the mule/prototype, even if it was the only one would make a giant manufacturer like Toyota abandon the whole project... unless there was something already significantly wrong or very difficult with it. For example, using an LMH-derived drivetrain could prove a mammoth task. It could be similar to what Mercedes/AMG have struggled with for a good few years now (Project ONE). Meanwhile some other manufacturers proved that astonishing performance can be reliably extracted from hybrid drivetrains without any direct link to racing projects. Some of them, almost a decade ago! As much as I like and respect homologation specials (or similar), non-racing-derived supercars have been more successful, especially in recent times.
On top of that, the styling of the Super Sport didn't set the world on fire, as far as I recall.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

... unless there was something already significantly wrong or very difficult with it. For example, using an LMH-derived drivetrain could prove a mammoth task.

The powertrain was/is supposed to be from the TS050. Which surely isn't less complicated than the one in GR010 LMH but they've had time to try to figure it out, the Super Sport as a concept precedes the LMH regs.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by deggis

The powertrain was/is supposed to be from the TS050. Which surely isn't less complicated than the one in GR010 LMH but they've had time to try to figure it out, the Super Sport as a concept precedes the LMH regs.

I suppose that makes road car application even more tricky.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Here's a thought.

What we know or can surmise from reasonably reliable sources:
- GR010 doesn't quite perform as expected
- GR010's looks weren't very well received by the public, expecting it to look more like a hypercar
- Peugeot unveiled a competitor that's a total gamechanger, at least in terms of presentation and image. What if most LMH/LMDh brands put this much emphasis on that?!
- a prototype of GR010's road car sibling burned down during testing

All of the factors above are nudging Toyota in the direction of a more radical redesign both on the LMH and the road hypercar front. Whereas the LMH car seems to need troubleshooting and an extensive image change, IMO. the road car can be almost a clean sheet design that's only stylistically aligned with the updated LMH design. I don't buy that losing the mule/prototype, even if it was the only one would make a giant manufacturer like Toyota abandon the whole project... unless there was something already significantly wrong or very difficult with it. For example, using an LMH-derived drivetrain could prove a mammoth task. It could be similar to what Mercedes/AMG have struggled with for a good few years now (Project ONE). Meanwhile some other manufacturers proved that astonishing performance can be reliably extracted from hybrid drivetrains without any direct link to racing projects. Some of them, almost a decade ago! As much as I like and respect homologation specials (or similar), non-racing-derived supercars have been more successful, especially in recent times.
On top of that, the styling of the Super Sport didn't set the world on fire, as far as I recall.

or maybe toyota isn't just interested on spending time and resources for a very limited production of a basically concept car?
in late '90 they made a couple of street ts020 only because were forced by the rules (and one of two was just made recycling the development mule chassis)

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

or maybe toyota isn't just interested on spending time and resources for a very limited production of a basically concept car?

If they weren't interested, they wouldn't spend so much time and resources on it already

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

If they weren't interested, they wouldn't spend so much time and resources on it already

it's different... for GRSS concept car, toyota just fit the TS050 PU on a tub with a bodywork... their main aim was just to have nothing more than a concept car to promote their racing brand and able to run 10-20km for the celebrative lap at le mans...
from that prototype to make a full working street car there is like an universe of difference...


even mercedes was able since 2017 to make working mercedes-AMG one prototypes for testing and promotional stuff, but they took 4 years to turn that prototype in a full working and homologated street car (on a however limited production).
I just think toyota decided that a street GRSS wasn't that worth.

[greenmachinets040]

Glickenhaus said, that they had the race won if they didn t have the brake problem on their car. It sounds very optimistic! after the system reboot for the Nr. 7 Toyota the japanese car ran at very fast pace and could have cought the Alpine and also the Glickenhaus by the end of the race.

[Aysedasi]

Whoever runs without any major issue will win....

[greenmachinets040]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Whoever runs without any major issue will win....

Good old truth!

[Aysedasi]

Ain't it just!

[S griffin]

Toyota could have tough competition if Glick's testing times are anything to go by.

BTW nice new profile picture Ayse

[cavalo_mORTO]

At 2010 le mans, if Peugeot's engine didn't blow up they would've won.
Or at 2016 le mans, with Toyota's last lap glitch.

[greenmachinets040]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Toyota could have tough competition if Glick's testing times are anything to go by.

BTW nice new profile picture Ayse

According to the test day Toyota shall not have problems pacewise in the race, moreover when in traffic, which obviously is the case at La Sarthe.

Toyota threw lap times in succession to which nobody had a real answer to, but OK, let s wait and see what happens in the race.

The hybrid boost plays a key role in traffic.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Toyota could have tough competition if Glick's testing times are anything to go by.

BTW nice new profile picture Ayse

Thank you. Sticking two fingers up to my situation seemed fairly apt......

[Toyotats03OUS]

I am a Toyota die hard fan and always will be. I like glicken because they are from my home state of New York about 35 mins away from me but I have to say that they sound a bit arrogant at times, kind of bragging! Idk. Even when Toyota came back to the WEC Audi show tons of class and respect and never underestimated Toyota. But again we are talking about power house car manufacture vs a little priveteer from NY

[greenmachinets040]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

I am a Toyota die hard fan and always will be. I like glicken because they are from my home state of New York about 35 mins away from me but I have to say that they sound a bit arrogant at times, kind of bragging! Idk. Even when Toyota came back to the WEC Audi show tons of class and respect and never underestimated Toyota. But again we are talking about power house car manufacture vs a little priveteer from NY

I think that only sensitive die hard Toyota fans - as I am too - can feel a little bit of arrogance from Glickenhaus. OK, it is their style of living, opinion making and cheering on themselves.

Who has been around Le Mans racing knows best, that fastest lap times have nothing to do with actual race pace in LM24.

Jim has to boost the Glickenhaus car sales to carry on in WEC and they had to make this headline for the newspapers. Nevertheless he is a big enthusiast in my opinion and this is a good thing for this sport.