LMP1 diesel performance adjustment

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

I guess Mike would be WRONG.

A cut tire prevent victory by Audi and Im not so sure it would have been a victory anyway, as the Porsche and Acura seem to find the lap times when needed, especially Herta to keep Dindo behind him.

Audi is pushing and pushing hard, I don't get where you think they aren't "trying"; fuel consumption for the diesel is a bit better than the gas powered cars and on par with P2 cars actually.

In any event, when the track suits the Audi, like Road America and Mosport, they should come awhile with easy victories. Mid Ohio, Laguna Seca, Utah, Bele Isle and Lime Rock will be just like the last 3 events, they'll have to earn it.

Sigh, indeed I was... But McNish did take the early lead (into turn one as predicted), heading the field by 14 seconds after nearly an hour into the race. But for the puncture and contact with the GT2 as he attempted to fight his way back...who knows? Audi equally had the lap time as needed as is evident by McNish's ability to pull away from the field in his first stint.

Fuel consumption is a bit better...but you're forgetting they have a smaller tank making it even more important. It would seem to me that Audi is still only running as fast as they need (the drivers are certainly racing as hard as they can--the engine just isn't being tuned for max power) to and fuel saving as a dictation of strategy due to the smaller tank they now have to run which is a bigger issue on the street courses due to the inpredictability of yellows (and the higher probability of them). And when I say they are only running as fast as they need to, clearly their drivers are flat out, but I'll suggest they are carrying a car that is tuned back for fule consumption and the drivers are making up the competitive lap times via pure ability.

[chewymonster]

The very fuel efficient TDI diesel can't overcome 30% more power and 19% more weight against the P2s (all based on factory figures of course) Also, I doubt that the P2s are only making 500 hp.

[dj4monie]

Mike I know your understand car dynamics better than most and I agree with you on all your points.

But this is a fair fight.

The best paid drivers available vs the best paid drivers available.

Porsche and Acura use P2 as a stepping stone to P1 when the rules appear to favor a P1 gas engine combination.

But alas, Honda is said to be working on not only Hybrid electric but Diesel engines as well and they'll need too if they want to be major players in the European market. But the US market is about to explode with turbo-diesel cars and Audi having proven to the masses that diesel power is equal to gas power figures to have a big jump on Benz in the diesel car market here.

That's a bit off subject, but Acura could wait it out for a proper diesel street car to appear before making the switch to P1.

In fact I'm not surprised by pace of Acura's program and I'm with Chewy, don't you think they are squeezing a bit more than 500hp from their small displacement V8 engines?

We honestly couldn't hope for better competition with Audi in the long term. Honda is tenacious and they won't stop until they reach their goal which is to put Acura on the front page of the "multi-colored fish wrap" with victory at Le Mans, securing Acura's future market in Europe as a performance brand and moving it form a luxo to performance brand here.

Audi is playing with fire, Honda moves alot more volume world wide and can afford to "dump" money to prop up its Acura brand. If Audi is crushed in its wake then it goes in the column "Be careful what you wish for"

I hope we can get the same level of competitiion for Corvette soon.

[SebringMG]

Was very surprised to see that the Porsche's were only putting out 503-510 bhp - now i know that they run smaller restrictors than the LMS cars but still seems surprisingly small given their incredible pace

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

Mike I know your understand car dynamics better than most and I agree with you on all your points.

But this is a fair fight.

The best paid drivers available vs the best paid drivers available.

Porsche and Acura use P2 as a stepping stone to P1 when the rules appear to favor a P1 gas engine combination.

But alas, Honda is said to be working on not only Hybrid electric but Diesel engines as well and they'll need too if they want to be major players in the European market. But the US market is about to explode with turbo-diesel cars and Audi having proven to the masses that diesel power is equal to gas power figures to have a big jump on Benz in the diesel car market here.

That's a bit off subject, but Acura could wait it out for a proper diesel street car to appear before making the switch to P1.

In fact I'm not surprised by pace of Acura's program and I'm with Chewy, don't you think they are squeezing a bit more than 500hp from their small displacement V8 engines?

We honestly couldn't hope for better competition with Audi in the long term. Honda is tenacious and they won't stop until they reach their goal which is to put Acura on the front page of the "multi-colored fish wrap" with victory at Le Mans, securing Acura's future market in Europe as a performance brand and moving it form a luxo to performance brand here.

Audi is playing with fire, Honda moves alot more volume world wide and can afford to "dump" money to prop up its Acura brand. If Audi is crushed in its wake then it goes in the column "Be careful what you wish for"

I hope we can get the same level of competitiion for Corvette soon.

I know its a fair fight! But if you listen to Jag it isn't and the LMP1 Audi is at a disadvantage! Recall he felt that the R10 had been comprehensively beaten in practice and qualifying this weekend at Houston. That's disingenuous at best! And that's the point I've been torpedoing. So we agree its been a pretty fair fight at these early season street races that favor into the LMP's lighter weight and better power to weight (lots of braking and cornering). And yes, Porsche's claim of 503 hp is lame, we all know its putting out in the 550 region. I have it on good authority a stock block 3.4 liter V6 can do 500 so therefore a purpose built V8 is certainly good for way more than that and is in the region AER claims for their turbo. But once we get to the tracks where one can stretch its legs the LMP2's strentghs will be diminished realtive to LMP1 and Audi will be less concerned with fuel mileage because they can then fall back to their strength, and it won't be equal any longer. So all this hand wringing about the poor LMP1s...whatever. The ALMS did what they needed to do in order to make for some competitive racing in the series. Unfortuantely we've probably seen the season peak for competition (Mid Ohio will probably be the last place). The 5% "break" LMP2 got for its restrictor was nothing and won't make for a competitive car across the entire season. Audi will win LMP1 again and more than likely won't really be challeneged again this season. Is a shame. But I don't think this primes Acura's pump for LMP1. The gas to diesel discrepency still exists and Acura is aware of that. Porsche too. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that's why both are in LMP2 and not LMP1. Talk to their people, they're not daft and out there fighting windmills.

Anyway, I've written too much. Don't want to get into this bigger debate LMP1 vs. LMP2, what's right, what should be able to compete with one another. My primary point here is that ALMS' competition adjustment worked (Audi was certainly not at a disadvantage as has been suggsted) and was necessary, but that equality will diminish once the series gets out to the proper traditional road courses. I hope you all have enjoyed it!

[Spyderman]

Mike - Superbly put!

[Nordic]

Why should a P2 car be as fast as a P1?

P1 is the top class and a P1 should by rights always be a better option for overal race wins than a P2.

It was never the case in Group C. We never expected a C2 (or lights) Spice to have the beating of a 956 or 962 did we.

To carry your theorys forward a GT2 car should be able to challage a GT1 on pace, and if it does not then the GT 1 car has an unfair advantage and should be slowed.

If Porsche or Honda want to challage for overall victory on a regular basis, then they should go up a class into P1, not expect rules to be created to slow the Audi, that is plain lunacy.

The ALMs in my opion has 2 options

1. Take the big step and only run P2 (and GT2), the series I think is strong enough, and if Audi want to race, then it can run with the big boys in Europe or drop down to P2.

2. Introduce a rule that ensured Audi (and Porsche, Honda etc) was forced to sell customer cars at a fixed cost.

[JAG]

What do some of you guy's want, Audi to be 2 seconds a lap down on street circuits?

They're competing against P2 cars, P2's shouldn't have a chance of overall victories on pure pace, yet are ultra competitve.

Factory cars are coming to the fore in P2, Dyson hasn't had a sniff of victory in four events, let me guess, maybe it's because they're up against factory teams? If ever a teams jumped too soon it's them!

The Evo 1 RS Spyder looked worlds better than the Intersport Lola last season, this season we see the Fernandez Lola, with a factory Acura engine, drivers and back-up, quicker than Dyson, who have an Evo II Spyder at their disposal!

Off the shelf Courage LC75's, with limited Acura chassis developments, are as quick as the all conquering Penske Spyders, doesn't this perfectly illustrate how important factory backing is to find those extra few tenths?

The R10 has shown it's extra weight isn't a huge dissadvantage, illustrated by the fact it could dive dowm the inside of P2's under breaking.

All I'm suggesting is a 925kg P1 Acura or Porsche, with a turbo enigne, would be even more competitive than P2's. Diesels almost certainly have a power advantage, but a factory petrol P1 will almost certainly be quicker than P2's, so would be in with a shot of victory at all circuits.

No one is ever satisfied with restrictors, look at Aston and GM last season, I'm simply suggesting the R10's advantages are down to the team, drivers, tyres, chassis and back-up, as much as that engine.

On the one hand we have people stating the R10 is unbeatable under current regs, their advantage is too great.

On the other hand they're stating Creation and Zytek, privateer teams with hybrid chassis and off the shelf engines, were only competitive with the R10 due to a 40kg-50kg weight breaks, which let's face it is neither here nor there in the great scheme of things. Plenty of cars have been competitive while being overweight, not least the old, patched up Panoz LMP1.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Nordic

The ALMs in my opion has 2 options

1. Take the big step and only run P2 (and GT2), the series I think is strong enough, and if Audi want to race, then it can run with the big boys in Europe or drop down to P2.

2. Introduce a rule that ensured Audi (and Porsche, Honda etc) was forced to sell customer cars at a fixed cost.

1. Run just P2? May I ask why you alienate FOUR privateers who have recently purchased chassis to run in P1 then?

2. I don't disagree with the idea of rules to encourage sale of chassis, but at a fixed cost it wouldn't make any sense. There are far more clever ways to achieve a goal.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

What do some of you guy's want, Audi to be 2 seconds a lap down on street circuits?

Did anybody suggest that? If you read what people are suggesting, they are quite happy and satisfied with the ACO's rules from 06'.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by JAG

What do some of you guy's want, Audi to be 2 seconds a lap down on street circuits?

They're competing against P2 cars, P2's shouldn't have a chance of overall victories on pure pace, yet are ultra competitve.

Factory cars are coming to the fore in P2, Dyson hasn't had a sniff of victory in four events, let me guess, maybe it's because they're up against factory teams? If ever a teams jumped too soon it's them!

The Evo 1 RS Spyder looked worlds better than the Intersport Lola last season, this season we see the Fernandez Lola, with a factory Acura engine, drivers and back-up, quicker than Dyson, who have an Evo II Spyder at their disposal!

Off the shelf Courage LC75's, with limited Acura chassis developments, are as quick as the all conquering Penske Spyders, doesn't this perfectly illustrate how important factory backing is to find those extra few tenths?

The R10 has shown it's extra weight isn't a huge dissadvantage, illustrated by the fact it could dive dowm the inside of P2's under breaking.

All I'm suggesting is a 925kg P1 Acura or Porsche, with a turbo enigne, would be even more competitive than P2's. Diesels almost certainly have a power advantage, but a factory petrol P1 will almost certainly be quicker than P2's, so would be in with a shot of victory at all circuits.

No one is ever satisfied with restrictors, look at Aston and GM last season, I'm simply suggesting the R10's advantages are down to the team, drivers, tyres, chassis and back-up, as much as that engine.

On the one hand we have people stating the R10 is unbeatable under current regs, their advantage is too great.

On the other hand they're stating Creation and Zytek, privateer teams with hybrid chassis and off the shelf engines, were only competitive with the R10 due to a 40kg-50kg weight breaks, which let's face it is neither here nor there in the great scheme of things. Plenty of cars have been competitive while being overweight, not least the old, patched up Panoz LMP1.

+1. Brilliant post. Sums up everything I have been saying for some time.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by JAG

They're competing against P2 cars, P2's shouldn't have a chance of overall victories on pure pace, yet are ultra competitve.

With a 5 percent smaller restrictor and/or on a non street circuit, then things would be very different.

Originally Posted by JAG

Off the shelf Courage LC75's, with limited Acura chassis developments, are as quick as the all conquering Penske Spyders, doesn't this perfectly illustrate how important factory backing is to find those extra few tenths?

If only it was so simple, unfortunately your Rose tinted spectacles miss the the small matter of a 5 second deficite at Le Mans, not 5 tenth's.

Originally Posted by JAG

All I'm suggesting is a 925kg P1 Acura or Porsche, with a turbo enigne, would be even more competitive than P2's. Diesels almost certainly have a power advantage, but a factory petrol P1 will almost certainly be quicker than P2's, so would be in with a shot of victory at all circuits.

Not really, maybe at a few of the moderately twisty circuits. But Audi are the masters of Sandbagging and are quite clearly running a "Fuel strategy" in these street races, whereas on circuits with less Yellow flags they can turn the Power up at will.

Certainly at the race that the ACO have primary responsibility for (Le Mans), a Factory Petrol would still have next to no chance against a Factory Diesel. And Le Mans is the race that matters the most, so slim pickings at Street circuits are not enough to entice potential factory LMP1 petrols.

[JAG]

If your correct the Swiss Spirit Lola Audi will be humbled, Audi will have egg on their face, and diesels will be heavily restricted in 2008.

To have a say on the matter you have to stand up and be counted, Audi, Peugeot and hopefully Acura are doing just that.

[Purist]

JAG, you yourself just said the diesels almost certainly have a power advantage over petrol LMP1s, and we know they have as much as 50% more torque. Given those two things, what chance does a petrol, factory LMP1 have, really? Once the R10 can handle the bumps as well as the R8, they'll be able to put the power down, even on the street circuits, and it could well be game over for the competition, regardless of the track.

[chewymonster]

There is no factory gasoline P1 engine out there. Until the Swiss Spirit Team runs some races. Read my previous P2 privatter vs. factory engine comments. A claimed 500 hp factory engine is a billion times faster than a claimed 550 hp privateer engine.

[Purist]

Which privateer engine and which factory engine do you mean. Might I point out the Jon Field showed that in the right hands, the Intersport Lola was a match in pace to Penske's cars, and at Road America no less.

Also, it was a full year from when Dyson got their Lola EX257-MG until they won with it. Heck, early on, the car was FAR MORE unrealiable than their new Porsches have been. It's only been four races (a mere third of a season). The #16 and #20 are improving, and I have little doubt that in time they will have plenty of pace. Intersport has switched to Creation after running Lolas for how long? Dyson has switched back to Porsche after running Lolas and R&Ss for how long? The adjustment for both teams will take some time. Sheesh, even Audi went a full season in 1999 with the R8C and the R8R before producing their "all-conquering" R8 for 2000.

[canam]

Over a typical circit, 40-50 kg weight dispensation is viewed to be worth 0.5 second a lap ie. a lot more than 'neither here nor there'. It also improves reliability by producing less strain on components. On street circuits it is likely to be more.

With that weight dispension, last year's R10 was pushed (at PLM and Laguna) by Creation and Zytek Hybrids. That is just pace.

We are forgetting that the relative efficiency of the diesel allows them to run longer when they need to--without much loss of lap time. This appeared to be the crux of Rob Dyson's beef about the regs. They sandbagged the fuel stops until they had to show what they could do. The Pugs did the same at Monza to the point of amausement. A Pug diesel less efficient than a petrol Judd.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by canam

They sandbagged the fuel stops until they had to show what they could do. The Pugs did the same at Monza to the point of amausement. A Pug diesel less efficient than a petrol Judd.

The Peugeot HDi engine was designed for power instead of fuel economy based on the 2006 rules where diesel and petrol both had 90 liter tanks

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The Peugeot HDi engine was designed for power instead of fuel economy based on the 2006 rules where diesel and petrol both had 90 liter tanks

is that your suggestion or do you have evidence to support that?

[canam]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The Peugeot HDi engine was designed for power instead of fuel economy based on the 2006 rules where diesel and petrol both had 90 liter tanks

I struggle with that one. All the engineers need to do is to turn down the fuel flow rate to adjust the power to the level that they get best overall performance for the track. After all, they only had 2 seconds a lap advantage in the race and much more in hand in quali.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

is that your suggestion or do you have evidence to support that?

This was mentioned in the press release of the 908.

5 Questions Bruno FAMIN: Technical Director

Have the changes to the ACO regulations made you late?
No, not really, but it now means that we have to look at the performance/fuel consumption to be more in favour of fuel consumption.

source: http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans...0060110_gb.pdf

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This was mentioned in the press release of the 908.
source: http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans...0060110_gb.pdf

this is relative then, I am sure one of the reasons for entering the diesel era was the potential saving in fuel consumption. You will try to compromise between the optimum power and the optimum fuel consumption. Now that the rules changed they had to look at the fuel consumption again. The press release nowhere states that power got priority over fuel consumption...

[gwyllion]

Of course with diesel it is easy to exchange power for fuel consumption, because you have a lean mixture. Just inject a bit less fuel for a given number of revs.

The ability to switch to lean mixtures (e.g., in case of safety car) also was one of the strenghts of the Audi FSI V8 engine.

[paul-collins]

This is partially off topic, but on comparisons between P1 and P2, and between P2 cars:

1) Let's not forget the main reason Audi has difficulty at short twisty tracks. They have more tires to compensate for more weight, so their grip under braking is not going to be compromised. They have more torque and therefore can accelerate out of corners much better (witness McNish's starts at Houston and St Pete). They get killed in the slow corners because of their long wheelbase.

Now, how do you compensate for that?

The problem is, of course, that the diesel is a long engine and therefore the long wheelbase is part of the package - ie not at the designer's discretion.

2) on comparing the AER turbo to the NA V8 Porsche: Jon Field did show that the AER - with a restrictor break and boost increase - could compete with the Porsches. Having watched the pace of the Fernandez Lola compared to the Acura (nee Courage) chassis, I'd have to say that the Lola isn't quite up to pace with the Evo Porsche; I can't immediately compare it to last year's Porsche, though, but I don't know how much performance was increased in the Evo.

But the real limiting factor for Intersport last year is the same as it is this year in P1. Tires. Last year they were on horrid Goodyears. How Jon got as close to the Michelin shod Porsches last year is beyond me...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Purist

JAG, you yourself just said the diesels almost certainly have a power advantage over petrol LMP1s, and we know they have as much as 50% more torque. Given those two things, what chance does a petrol, factory LMP1 have, really? Once the R10 can handle the bumps as well as the R8, they'll be able to put the power down, even on the street circuits, and it could well be game over for the competition, regardless of the track.

They have a power advantage, they also have packaging, cooling and, potentially, reliability issues.

You could argue this power advantage is written into the regs, but over the years many cars have had power advantages over the competition, not least the Audi R8 turbo over Pescarolo's V6 Peugeot, which I'm guessing was far greater than the R10's advantage over Pescarolo's current Judd.

No doubt a factory petrol engine will also have an advantage over off the shelf engines.