Indycar News & Rumors.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by HJJ

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...KOEb8Y.twitter

Interesting that you seemed to think the series/speedway had this deep emotional love and understanding for the team owners?

So truly and deeply loving and understanding the speedway dorked the owners over with their mutually beneficial dallara automobili parts agreement with crony monopoly markups. Let them eat cake.

I'm lookin' forward to that Delta Wing indy lights car!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

MS, I did not realize that the quote would be that hard to decipher! Seemed pretty obvious to me, anyways....

Yes it is obvious, but I will not go there and instead let you guys chew on it.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I really don't think that Star Race Cars (the group that builds/built Star Mazdas) would be able to easily move towards constructing an IndyCar chassis. Further, so far as I can tell this is an independent company contracted to build Star Mazdas. It is not owned or operated by Mazda. In fact, other than the name and the engine, I really don't see any direct involvement by Mazda in the production of the vehicle.

I really believe that Mazda is as deep in the motorsports pool as they wish to go and that the natural progression for them would be to Grand Am/ALMS, similar to what they did in IMSA and later in endurance racing.

AFAIK Mazda only in more recent years contributed assistance to this series, which when Star Mazda got going in the late 80's was never intended to be a ladder series. The whole idea was to have a car and engine that could be easily maintained by privateers or club teams but faster than a Formula Ford. The company that built the STAR cars was not associated at all with Mazda and AFAIK still is not.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought they were built by, Star Race Cars / 10639 Glenoaks Blvd, Pacoima, CA 91331 / (818) 686-3350.

Star Race Cars builds Formula Mazda's and the Star Mazda engines, IIRC.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

AFAIK Mazda only in more recent years contributed assistance to this series, which when Star Mazda got going in the late 80's was never intended to be a ladder series. The whole idea was to have a car and engine that could be easily maintained by privateers or club teams but faster than a Formula Ford. The company that built the STAR cars was not associated at all with Mazda and AFAIK still is not.

I don't think they are either. Go to apexspeed and ask around there, bjohnson. I'm sure you'll get the right answer around those parts.

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought they were built by, Star Race Cars / 10639 Glenoaks Blvd, Pacoima, CA 91331 / (818) 686-3350.

Nope, they were contracted to elan Motorsports Technologies when they went from a space frame to a carbon fiber tub.

- 110 cars built to date

http://www.elangroup.com/index.php?o...d=64&Itemid=53

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Nope, they were contracted to elan Motorsports Technologies when they went from a space frame to a carbon fiber tub.



http://www.elangroup.com/index.php?o...d=64&Itemid=53

Very confusing because on the Star Mazda website the constructor is named as Star Race Cars / 10639 Glenoaks Blvd, Pacoima, CA 91331.

http://www.starmazda.com/series/specifications.htm

Maybe Elan just make the tub but Star Race Cars assemble the cars?

[HJJ]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Very confusing because on the Star Mazda website the constructor is named as Star Race Cars / 10639 Glenoaks Blvd, Pacoima, CA 91331.

http://www.starmazda.com/series/specifications.htm

Maybe Elan just make the tub but Star Race Cars assemble the cars?

Sent to them as a roller. They install the rotary. elan also repairs damaged cars.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's an interesting point. Though if Mazda really wanted to up their profile as a manufacturer/constructor I couldn't think of a better series than the BTCC.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Star Race Cars.

The BTCC makes perfect sense for Mazda as a platform to promote their road cars. I have no idea what sort of presence they have in the UK, but that type of series would be right in their sweet spot.

[HJJ]

Cost cutting coming.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...oming-for-2013

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Cost cutting coming.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...oming-for-2013

At first blush it seems to be a very sensible and balanced plan.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by HJJ

Cost cutting coming.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...oming-for-2013

Just hoping that it would not scrap the aero kit plan. Otherwise, no one's gonna watch this series without distinguishing themselves from the rest of the field.

[HJJ]

08/21/12 Parts crisis threatens IndyCar's future *Is there any sport in the world that features as much infighting between the governing body and the participating teams as Indy car racing?

Don’t kid yourself: the dissention in the sport didn’t start with the CART/IRL split of 1996. It goes all the way back to the late 1970s, when CART was formed by a group of team owners who believed that USAC focused almost exclusively on the Indianapolis 500 and was not placing enough emphasis on the kind of season-long championship the teams needed to survive as business entities.

Therefore, it’s either ironic or disturbing that the IZOD IndyCar Series could be on the brink of another owner’s revolt. In a USA Today story published this week, Jeff Olson documented the current war that is quietly raging below the surface, pitting team owners against exclusive chassis supplier Dallara, with INDYCAR forced into the role of mediator.

Dallara, you might recall, won the rights to the contract to build the new spec chassis introduced into the IndyCar Series for 2012. INDYCAR stipulated that Dallara must build the car in America, so Dallara constructed a spectacular final assembly facility on Main Street in Speedway, Indiana, within sight of Turn 1 of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Don’t call it a factory, because cars are 80 to 90 percent completed at Dallara’s base in Italy before being shipped to the USA for completion.

Dallara, in return, demanded that all spare parts for the DW12 chassis must be sourced from Dallara. In the past, most teams maintained fabrication shops capable of making suspension components and small carbon fiber bodywork parts like wings and endplates. If they didn’t do it themselves, the parts were available from independent local suppliers.

This is where the current problem lies: Because INDYCAR determined the sale price of the rolling chassis ($385,000, considerably lower than the cost of the outgoing Dallara IR03 design), Dallara is making up for lost profit by selling spare parts (and other components necessary to put a rolling chassis on track) at a considerably higher cost than team owners were used to paying. And the team owners are not happy, claiming their costs to prepare and run the DW12 are actually higher than the outgoing IR03.

The owners claim that the extra parts necessary to put the car on track add 50 to 70 percent to the initial $385K sticker price – an estimated $150,000-190,000 per car. They are demanding an across-the-board 40 percent price cut on those parts.

And here’s the tricky bit: because INDYCAR’s contract with Dallara gives Dallara exclusive rights to manufacture and sell those parts, the team owners have no recourse but to use INDYCAR as a middleman to bring those costs into line with where they were in the past.

INDYCAR CEO Randy Bernard says the parts in question make up only about 5 percent of a team’s total budget.

“There are some very rational owners who have discussed issues with me and have discussed them in a practical way,” IndyCar CEO Randy Bernard told USA Today. “There are others that just want to create turmoil and continue to fight. I’m not sure that they understand the bigger picture…it’s very important for us to be able to sit in a room and understand the complete economics and make decisions that are in the best interest of the series overall.”

The team owners are upset to the point that they are threatening to produce enough of the necessary parts themselves and show up at a race in unison without the required Dallara components, risking disqualification or penalty.

“You don’t want to see it get nasty,” said longtime team owner (and three-time Indy car champion driver) Bobby Rahal. “You don’t want to get to the point where the owners all decide to use parts from outside vendors and take the chance of getting black-flagged. That’s a possibility en masse. But if everybody keeps a cool head, there should be a reduction in the price of parts.”

Bernard and INDYCAR president of operations and strategy Brian Barnhart, who is considered the architect of the Dallara deal, say they hope to reach a resolution by September 15. Of course, that won’t make any difference to any team’s 2012 bottom line, given that September 15 is also the date of the final IndyCar Series race of the season in Fontana, California.

“Internally, we’ve got everybody working on this,” Barnhart remarked to USA Today. “We’re trying to do everything we can. I would say there is a sense of urgency. We do have a responsibility to respond to this.”

Needless to say, Dallara is holding its ground. “We made a big investment to come to the United States,” said Dallara’s chief of U.S. operations, Stefano di Ponti. “We have bills to pay and mortgages to pay. We can’t release too much, otherwise we can’t stay in business. We’ll go bankrupt.

“They're asking for a big percentage,” he added. “Forty to fifty percent is a big number for us. We’re trying to come up with the best solution to please them.”

Many longtime Indy car fans are discouraged that the sport has in effect become a spec car formula over the past seven years, although this year there is at least heavily regulated competition between engine manufacturers. The larger teams remain unhappy that they are no longer able to develop their own parts for cars in an effort to gain a performance advantage.

But the real point of contention remains the price – and the performance – of the Dallara spare parts. Owners contend that not only are the self-produced components considerably cheaper, they are also of higher quality.

“We know what we can make parts for and what we can buy them for on the open market,” said team owner Bryan Herta. “That’s the root of the problem. We were told that the cost we were going to pay for a running car would be less than they were before. Those things have not proven to be true.

“We’re willing to work with Dallara on buying their parts, but it’s got to be reasonable. The representations that were made to us as we were preparing to start with the car are not in line with what’s happening now.”

It’s a shame that Indy car racing as a whole continues to shoot itself in the foot. The DW12, which polarized many fans with its appearance, has been a huge success on the track, with this year’s competition featuring plenty of passing and exciting action. With three races remaining in the 2012 season, four drivers (Will Power, Ryan Hunter-Reay, Helio Castroneves and Scott Dixon) are in a tight battle for the series championship.

But as always seems to be the case in this particular sport, the action on the track continues to be overshadowed by political issues that leave a sour taste in the mouths of competitors and fans.

Let’s hope a resolution to Indy car racing’s latest crisis is reached soon to put the spotlight back where it belongs. RacingInAmerica.com

.

[mountainstar]

Looks like the owners are in full blown revolt now with some wanting out, some wanting to buy the series, some wanting out unless they get a boost in their welfare check and others unhappy for various reasons. No cohesion yet however, but there is not one single owner who is delighted.

Teams can't get sponsorship, promoters are not interested, the tv and media is dead, manufacturers are not happy with their return and the hulman georges are out of money. This series is about to be history. It has been sliding into an untenable situation that cannot continue. And that is a good thing.

In any case, Pat Patrick had some comments about the irl in this article:

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no348.html

[Purist]

So it's good that there will be no Indy Car racing, and never will be again?

It's good that NASCAR will have everything, and the rest of us will have to go to Europe to get a kind of racing we like, or just give up on racing altogether forever?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Purist

So it's good that there will be no Indy Car racing, and never will be again?

It's good that NASCAR will have everything, and the rest of us will have to go to Europe to get a kind of racing we like, or just give up on racing altogether forever?

Yeah it will be good it will be out of the hands of the speedway, who haven't demonstrated any competence at all.

I think people that fear the end of open wheel formula racing are shortsighted and if anything it will be a boom instead, assuming it ends up in the right hands.

[Down F0rce]

The team owners are not the right hands.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Looks like the owners are in full blown revolt now with some wanting out, some wanting to buy the series, some wanting out unless they get a boost in their welfare check and others unhappy for various reasons. No cohesion yet however, but there is not one single owner who is delighted.

Teams can't get sponsorship, promoters are not interested, the tv and media is dead, manufacturers are not happy with their return and the hulman georges are out of money. This series is about to be history. It has been sliding into an untenable situation that cannot continue. And that is a good thing.

In any case, Pat Patrick had some comments about the irl in this article:

http://www.gordonkirby.com/categorie..._is_no348.html

A very interesting article from Gordon Kirby. I agree with Pat Patrick about having a little innovation and using one's brain. IndyCar doesn't seem to have used either. They've merely substituted a failing series for another one and the irony is the racing this season has actually been the best there's been for a long time. I also find it shocking, if that's not too strong a word, that neither Ropin' Randy nor IMS had the courtesy to respond to Pat Patrick.

I personally think a lot of the problems stem from continuing with Dallara and with the car they produced. Many race fans were hoping for something that resembled the cars that raced in the '90s and instead got the DW 12. The car itself suffered from poor development and requires a lump of metal in the nose to balance it and now there's the problem of parts, with overall running cost being much more than it was to run the previous car. Also the stipulation by the IRL that the car was to be built at the factory at Indy is not the case. The car is primarily built in Italy.

As I've said before, they should have gone to Lola, who have a far superior pedigree than Dallara. Lola came up with the idea of aero-kits, as well as a universal tub, that Indy Lights could also use, thus avoiding the need for Indy Lights teams to buy a new tub, if they wished to race in IndyCar and so reduce costs.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

The team owners are not the right hands.

Without the team owners there's no series.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Purist

So it's good that there will be no Indy Car racing, and never will be again?

It's good that NASCAR will have everything, and the rest of us will have to go to Europe to get a kind of racing we like, or just give up on racing altogether forever?

OMG, don't tell me that IndyCar will end soon or later?

[Down F0rce]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Without the team owners there's no series.

They have their own interests in mind, they would not be suitable for running a championship. The only reason anything gets done in F1 is because there is only one man in charge to bang heads together and tell everyone how it's going to be. THAT is what Indycar needs.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

They have their own interests in mind, they would not be suitable for running a championship. The only reason anything gets done in F1 is because there is only one man in charge to bang heads together and tell everyone how it's going to be. THAT is what Indycar needs.

On the other hand, Ecclestone has been in charge of Formula One for more than 30 years, therefore having enough knowledge to know how to run a series like Formula One. IndyCar clearly lacks a figurehead, as neither Tony G. nor Randy B. weren't able to be proper figureheads. But then again, who can be a proper one? Mario Andretti is probably too old by now, the same goes for A.J. Foyt. Michael on the other hand might be a bit too young, but they all got to start somewhere. But the most important point should be trust. After all, such a figurehead needs to be trusted by all team owners.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

They have their own interests in mind, they would not be suitable for running a championship. The only reason anything gets done in F1 is because there is only one man in charge to bang heads together and tell everyone how it's going to be. THAT is what Indycar needs.

It does need someone like Bernie but don't forget Bernie's was only able to do this because back in the early '80s he made sure FOCA, the F1 team owners, of which he was one as well as being president, controlled the F1 TV rights. Unfortunately as long as the Hulman Georges/IMS call the shots that's not going to happen.

I sort of feel sorry for Ropin' Randy, as he's caught between a rock and a hard place; the Hulman Georges and the team owners. As for owning the TV rights, that's rather academic as there are so few people watching.

[JohnSSC]

Why is it that these discussions about IndyCar seem to come down to a debate about the Dallara?

Patrick hit the nail on the head insofar as the problems that are holding IndyCar back and none of those has really anything to do with the speocific characteristics of the Dallara.

This mess has everything to do with passing off a spec car as being somehow innovative, closing the 500 to innovators and the general irrelevance of IndyCar to anything that the sporting public cares to follow. While Randy is off trying to develop compelling story lines for us fans to enjoy he (if Pat Patrick isn't fibbing) is ignoring story lines that truly ARE compelling such as the return of the 'run whatcha brung attitude" at Indy.

I remember when Lotus, Chapman, Clark and Hill showed up with them funny little cars with the engines in the back. I remember the interest that garnered. No worries about having any such memories now.

I anxiously await the development of the next really mega aero kit...

Free the Penske Brothers!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Why is it that these discussions about IndyCar seem to come down to a debate about the Dallara?

Because it's not a very good car. It's not what race fans wanted and as you say, it's hardly innovative as a spec car but it's not just about the car itself. It's more expensive to run than its predecessor, though it was meant to be cheaper and now there's this business of parts only being available through Dallara, further adding to the cost, when teams could make or source them cheaper. As for the factory at Indy, built with tax payer's money to produce the cars, the cars are made in Italy; someone's doing very well for themselves.

Pat Patrick makes a valid point about using stock block engines as the cost would diminish greatly but that will just delay the inevitable unless there's innovation as well. He believes that using natural gas as a fuel will be the innovation that brings the interest, the investment and sponsors that IndyCar desperately needs.

If only there were someone like Colin Chapman but as long as they stick with Dallara, that won't happen.