FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

I'm currently looking at the process for applying for an HTP through the MSA and their initial HTP Application Form already has me confused...

It asks for Make represented and Manufacturer represented.
Is there a difference between the two?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...IUmXBoHnt2Udmb

Link to HTP above .
Page 3 section 4 says to ignore classification details until the vehicle is being checked , when it will be filled in .
So , possibly, classification, make, maunfacturer etc details will be agreed with inspector

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Page 3 section 4 says to ignore classification details until the vehicle is being checked , when it will be filled in .
So , possibly, classification, make, maunfacturer etc details will be agreed with inspector

Glad I was right.......

[zefarelly]

I think it was quite common for low volume GT manufacturers to have company names and car manufacturer names/model names.

Layton Sports cars LTD - TVR Grantura

Monocoque chassis and body co ltd - Marcos

Tunex Conversions &/or Heron plastics . . .Diva GT

[Mike Bell]

That’s what I was thinking. Trojan and McLaren as well?

When I’ve presented the local MSA Inspector with a semi-completed application form he has always brought his own anyway, and ignored mine!

[PeterMorley]

Thanks for that, makes sense in a bureaucratic way!
There seems to be the usual chicken & egg situation with the forms - include the front page photo you are going to use on the application form before the registrar comes and takes the photos...
As usual those on the coal face presumably know their way round the system and those in the office are none the wiser.

[zefarelly]

Inspectors vary, so to keep them onside probably best to suck it up and let them lead. . .

[macaw]

Inspectors do in deed vary. Having recently applied for papers I can highly recommend Robert Ellis who is very professional & very pleasant at the same time.
Dealing with the MSA however is another thing altogether. Was shocked by their attitude, would not respond to complaints regarding there processes & basically said pay up or we cancel your application. They wont be receiving complaints from me in the future as I have vowed never to apply for HTP papers again.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

I'm currently looking at the process for applying for an HTP through the MSA and their initial HTP Application Form already has me confused...

It asks for Make represented and Manufacturer represented.
Is there a difference between the two?

Peter you and successive writers have missed the point.
Since the FIA came to terms with the fact, some fifteen or more years ago, that many old racing cars carried badges on the front which bore little or no relationship to the cars origin and that the sport would be better concentrating on specification, we now have many cases where cars are being built by factories/manufacturers which are not the original; Shelby American(and AC ) Cobra's, GT 40's, some Porsche's, Jaguars, Lister etc spring to mind and are plain cases where the make represented is very different from the original manufacturer. Note the careful use of the word represented.
When you fill in the application form-rather than the HTP you you will see the clarification/rationale

[Peter Mallett]

Hello Jeremy. Long time no see I hope all is well with you..

[Mike Bell]

Likewise, and thanks for the clarification from someone that actually knows....

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Peter you and successive writers have missed the point.
Since the FIA came to terms with the fact, some fifteen or more years ago, that many old racing cars carried badges on the front which bore little or no relationship to the cars origin and that the sport would be better concentrating on specification, we now have many cases where cars are being built by factories/manufacturers which are not the original; Shelby American(and AC ) Cobra's, GT 40's, some Porsche's, Jaguars, Lister etc spring to mind and are plain cases where the make represented is very different from the original manufacturer. Note the careful use of the word represented.
When you fill in the application form-rather than the HTP you you will see the clarification/rationale

Hi Jeremy

I was wondering if that was the case - but do they mean original manufacturer or manufacturer of the car in question?
e.g. Lister Jaguar = Harper, GT40 = Gelscoe etc.
Or is it that a Shelby Cobra should say AC cars?

Luckily I'm passing this onto a certified FIA person, who is no doubt aware of the subtleties of their language!

Peter

[drbob]

Hi Tenthers, can anyone help me with a query about HTP for an original period Group A BMW 635 CSi which raced from 1984 to 1986 So its seems to straddle dating periods J1 ( up to 31.12.85) and J2 (1.1.86 to 31.12.90). I have never had to look at a HTP before.

What I don't understand is this : if I pick a year, say 1984 for livery can I utilise all the homologation variations up to 31.12.85 or do I have to stick to the homologations to the end of 1984.

Likewise if I pick 1986 as the year for livery can utilise homologation variations for 1987.

I am not sure how to interpret 3.3.7 of App. K. The guidelines refer to a year, if applicable (2.3b.)

[Peter Mallett]

It's an interesting one. I believe you have to present the car as it was run and not with anything you could homologate at the time. So if you prep to 1983 then you cant run 1986 parts.

[Mike Bell]

Has it got an HTP now? As Peter says, you declare a year, and everything has to correspond. So you can’t use parts not homologated until later, and I guess livery also.... (but never had that dilemma)

[drbob]

Thanks for your help guys.
Mike it does not have a HTP currently nor has it had one before as far as I can see.

[Tel 911S]

As far as I can remember , an HTP will refer to a period classification for competition .
So if it is being prepared for classes entering as up to 31.12.1985 , then it can use anything that was Homologated for that model , up to that date .

[Peter Mallett]

Oddly enough this came from Goodwood the other day:

Originally Posted by GRRC

To avoid any confusion, ALL cars MUST run to the papers that they have been granted. i.e. If a car has been granted papers at Group 1 specification, they will not pass scrutineering if they are prepared to Group 1.5 specification.

........................................................

We are clarifying the above to ensure there are no grey areas in terms of eligibility ahead of the race. Our regulations were written based on the 1982 British Saloon Car Championship, however they do not allow freedom for competitors to deviate from the specification that their HTP has been approved, or from what each car actually used at the time.

[Emphasis added]

This is also part of the current App K regs for the period. As I read it, if you are building a replica of, say, a 1980 Spice Autosport Capri, you can run what it ran in the year you have selected, but you can't run what was possibly homologated but not used. This is why we had to prove that the cars ran with certain modifications (such as the single IDA on my car) before we got the HTP.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

As far as I can remember , an HTP will refer to a period classification for competition .
So if it is being prepared for classes entering as up to 31.12.1985 , then it can use anything that was Homologated for that model , up to that date .

Unless I’m confused by the above, which is quite likely at my age - Yes, the period is declared on the front (E, F, J or whatever), but an HTP will also state on the front the YEAR of specification of the particular car. So a 1965 specified car can only use homologation extensions dated up to the end of that year, even if mid FIA period.

[Gerard C]

Mike, I'm less young than you are so may be more confused…*If the car was raced in period, drbob has to collect as many evidences as he can before applying. If he goes for a replica, same thing but in both cases all parts must have been "legally" used in period.
Bear in mind that some organizers give further allocation. Peter Auto HTC series accepts Group A from 1/1/82 up to 31/12/84 allowing the use of homologations till 31/12/86. This was the case in 2017, if drbob wants to enter this particular series he'd better check with Pierre Antoine Lecautour at PA what will be accepted in 2018.
My understanding gives that in HTC series with a 635 granted a '84 HTP he could race with a '86 version.

[Mike Bell]

Agree, for the purpose of obtaining an HTP, the car specification for the year (declared on the application) has to be proved. This is normally from the homologation papers and extensions.

What is then allowed / accepted by race organisers is a different discussion.....

[Duddha]

Guys,

a HTP is valid for a Period E/F/G/H/I/J for which there are sub-categories from G1-G2/H1-H2/I/J1-J2

So you declare a car for Period J1 as an example and therefore you can run all Homologation and Variant/Evolution included in the form for that Period, taking into account the year of specification to define the inner limitation within that Period.

Common sense for a Homologated car is to build a car to a Period and use the latest Year of Specification within that Period (F/1965 or J1/1985).

The Year of Specification is predominant for Two-Seater Racing Cars or Singleseaters as these are non-homologated cars and only built to period Appendix J rules, therefore, they are judged on that specific base and essentially, it means you can't run a Gurney on a 1970 wing as this was introduced only by "Dan the Man" in 1971.

On the question of a grid such as Peter Auto HTC, basically, acceptance of cars is based on the model having been Homologated before 31/12/1985 but specification can go up to 31.12.1986 included. But if you run a Rover with 1986 evolutions that doesn't give you the right to have J1 papers, they would still have to be J2.

[drbob]

I think this is the answer to my question about the Group A BMW 635. It looks like it is specs to a particular year in the J1 or J2 period.

See Appendix K:
7. TECHNICAL REGULATION FOR PRODUCTION ROAD CARS
7.1 General
7.1.1 These regulations apply to Touring Cars, Competition Touring
Cars, Grand Touring Cars, and Competition Grand Touring Cars,
and Special Touring Cars as defined in Articles 2.2 and 2.3.
7.3.2 Touring, Competition Touring, GT and GTS cars of Period
G2 (1/1/1970-31/12/1971) onwards must comply with the
Appendix J international Competition regulations appropriate to
the final year of their period as defined in Article 3. This concerns
in particular the possible coefficient for turbocharged cars in
Periods J1 and J2 respectively.
a) A Period J1 or J2 car must be prepared to a period specification
complying with both the Homologation Form and Appendix J of a
specific year within the period.

2.3.5.1 Post 1946 Competition Touring Cars are either:
(a) Models of limited series production of Periods E till I (1/1/1947-
31/12/1981) derived from a model of series production Touring
Car and upgraded within the limits of period Appendix J and
including cars homologated by the FIA in Group 2 before 1966.
(b) Models of 1/1/1966 onwards which were homologated in Group
2 or Group A and conforming to the period Appendix J.

[drbob]

Link to App K

https://www.fia.com/historic-regulations

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by drbob

I think this is the answer to my question about the Group A BMW 635. It looks like it is specs to a particular year in the J1 or J2 period.

See Appendix K:
7. TECHNICAL REGULATION FOR PRODUCTION ROAD CARS
7.1 General
7.1.1 These regulations apply to Touring Cars, Competition Touring
Cars, Grand Touring Cars, and Competition Grand Touring Cars,
and Special Touring Cars as defined in Articles 2.2 and 2.3.
7.3.2 Touring, Competition Touring, GT and GTS cars of Period
G2 (1/1/1970-31/12/1971) onwards must comply with the
Appendix J international Competition regulations appropriate to
the final year of their period as defined in Article 3. This concerns
in particular the possible coefficient for turbocharged cars in
Periods J1 and J2 respectively.
a) A Period J1 or J2 car must be prepared to a period specification
complying with both the Homologation Form and Appendix J of a
specific year within the period.

2.3.5.1 Post 1946 Competition Touring Cars are either:
(a) Models of limited series production of Periods E till I (1/1/1947-
31/12/1981) derived from a model of series production Touring
Car and upgraded within the limits of period Appendix J and
including cars homologated by the FIA in Group 2 before 1966.
(b) Models of 1/1/1966 onwards which were homologated in Group
2 or Group A and conforming to the period Appendix J.

Originally Posted by drbob

Link to App K

https://www.fia.com/historic-regulations

Yes and by the way, you can use any livery that was carried in period (J1 and/or J2) by that same model. Year of specification as said, limits the use of Extension/Evolution to the Homologation form within the chosen Period.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Oddly enough this came from Goodwood the other day:

[Emphasis added]

This is also part of the current App K regs for the period. As I read it, if you are building a replica of, say, a 1980 Spice Autosport Capri, you can run what it ran in the year you have selected, but you can't run what was possibly homologated but not used. This is why we had to prove that the cars ran with certain modifications (such as the single IDA on my car) before we got the HTP.

Which makes sense. The FIA, based on your work recognised Group 1 BSCC regulations, treating these cars with a special procedure but beforehand, some applied and were given papers as Group 2 and which rightfully allows even more freedoms. So it is good that Goodwood clarifies the situation and restrict its terms of acceptance.