Group A Ford Sierra RS500

[Gloves]

Karl Jones in the Asquith Motorsport Duckhams car

and Tim Harvey in the Terry Drury Racing Piper car

[Jesper OH]

Another nice set, Gloves.

Looking at my incomplete 1988/1989 BTCC results Tim Harvey was the sole Terry Drury driver for 1988? A pair of seconds was his best, but then in 1989 David Pinkney, Mike O'Brien, Robin Donovan, and late in the year, Jon Dooley and Andrew Hepworth couldn't even get into the points! Why this fall from grace? Harvey had an obvious flair for racing but the '89 line up should have been a decent one. Or was it team related running three cars or simply being left behind in development compared to Rouse, Trakstar and Goode?

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes indeed, good aren't they!

The red/white 'road reg'd' car could also be Ray MacDowall at the wheel. I think his firm 'ECM Vehicle Delivery' owned and sponsored the car and they may have shared it? Hugh Chalmers may also have been involved?

Hathaway's car always looked good. I have to admit i was surprised that we didn't see more RS500's with the Ford RS stripes scheme. I am sure there were a few but the only other one I can think of is the Dutch Bolderhey/Hin Marlboro verison mentioned much earlier in the thread. Very smart livery on that one.

The Dutch Sierra featured very nicely in a late 80's Demon Tweeks catalogue I remember, looking like another Rouse kit car.
Regarding Ford works colors:
http://www.zandbak.net/classic/89dtm/006.jpg
For 1989 the entire fleet of DTM Sierras ran the above paint scheme. The pictured car was shows the colors of the two Grab cars and actually also the Wolf entry. Eggenberger cars were blue instead of red (completely white for the first few rounds) and finally Ringshausen cars were Black with yellow replacing the red and running striking yellow Ronal rims as well:
http://www.zandbak.net/classic/89dtm/010.jpg
http://www.zandbak.net/classic/89dtm/015.jpg

Coming to think about it, I believe the 1988 Andy Rouse run Ford France RS500 of Alain Ferté ran the same paint scheme shown on the Hathaway car only being white with dark blue stripes. This was how the car appeared on a Danish visit in the hands of then Spice sports car driver Thorkild Thyrring. That was one mean car to look at. On another note Danish rally driver Jan Mortensen make a guest appearance with his RS Cosworth rally car for a 1989 race, running 1988 style stripings, only that they were green and blue. I have pictures of that car, but the ole scanner is still out to lunch.

Jesper

[GTRMagic]

Some of those pics are interesting in that they seem to use a 4 lug hub for the wheels instead of the almost universal centrelock... is that because the cars werent in full Group A trim, or the parts werent available/at the right price to make them the same?

There was some fiddling with wheel offsets and mudguards in the WTCC of '87... to try to get a 17" rim under the guards without fouling them... was wondering if that was part of the problem for the others... who look like they may be running 16" wheels...

[chunterer]

Re TDR cars....

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Or was it team related running three cars or simply being left behind in development compared to Rouse, Trakstar and Goode?

Basically I think yes, Rouse cars were always the 'best' and it was only the arrival of Trakstar and a lot of money to boot, that put ARE under any consistent pressure in the making Sierras go properly stakes! Graham Goode's cars were probably next best, but if Graham had more money I think he would have been able to spend more on development and make his and (Mike Newman's) more reliable and closer to the front more often as well. The Drury cars really were I think a bit like season long 'drives for hire' sort of cars?

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

The Dutch Sierra featured very nicely in a late 80's Demon Tweeks catalogue I remember, looking like another Rouse kit car.

Coming to think about it, I believe the 1988 Andy Rouse run Ford France RS500 of Alain Ferté ran the same paint scheme shown on the Hathaway car only being white with dark blue stripes.

Funnily enough, that's where I think I first saw a pic of the Marlboro car as well!! Let's see if between us we can find a pic of it to post up on here!!

You're also right about the French Rouse car too, well remembered!

The DTM diagonal stripe liveries were slightly different to the the aforementioned and Hathway's liveries though.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by andycos

Here is some pics or rare winner in 1989 Dave Brodie at Thruxton
Dave got a lot of stick for his improvement in form in this race,and wasn't to shy about defending his result to the camera's

I take it you remember the story as to how he suddenly made that car so quick then? Probably why he suddenly went on that comedy rant about the rest of thre drivers......

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I take it you remember the story as to how he suddenly made that car so quick then? Probably why he suddenly went on that comedy rant about the rest of thre drivers......

Was this the race where he was disqualified ..and never really featured among the front runners after that.

Here's the only picture I have found of the Ford France 1988 car:
http://www.fordmotorsportmodels.com/...%20France2.jpg
On its Danish visit it had BBS rims and, rare for group A cars, Goodyear tyres.

Jesper

[Jesper OH]

Another sort of variation on the Ford Motorsport paint theme scheam - this is Stig Blomqvist and the Söderqvist RS500 in 1990:
http://www.teambild.se/arkiv/details.php?image_id=14190

Jesper

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Was this the race where he was disqualified ..and never really featured among the front runners after that.

Protested and excluded for fuel infringements.

He was on the pace at the second Thruxton visit, leading for a time, and ran top 3 at Brands GP - the meeting after he'd handed over his Thruxton winner's trophy to Tim Harvey - so he did get back up the front again.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Protested and excluded for fuel infringements.

He was on the pace at the second Thruxton visit, leading for a time, and ran top 3 at Brands GP - the meeting after he'd handed over his Thruxton winner's trophy to Tim Harvey - so he did get back up the front again.

Thank you Tim, for the details. What I'm referring to was memories from the period and looking back at his results, I'm not shure everything was right after those early rounds. He qualified second at the round 4 Donington race to finish 10th. At the Brands Hatch August meeting he started 3rd from the grid to finish 11th, and more to the point, he didn't finish in the points beyond round 2 (from my still incomplete statistics but at least those top-6 point scores should be covered).

He appeared for a few 1990 rounds, in a livery similar to the '89 Thruxton pictures shown recently in this thread. But now the car was a basic mat black with that silvery mid line now featuring quite prominently. A chance of any pictures of that livery?

Jesper

[andycos]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I take it you remember the story as to how he suddenly made that car so quick then? Probably why he suddenly went on that comedy rant about the rest of thre drivers......

Oh yes, who was it he said "had more rolls than joe chalks cafe "

Did Dave Brodie have a major sponsor, or was he funding most of his team effort ?

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by Gloves

And here is the road registered car mentioned ealier in the thread

In case you should ever get in need of pictorial evidence of understeer vs. oversteer.

Jesper

[GBRM]

That's road suspension for you Jesper.

Strange how the Brode got caught for turbo problems when his job/company made turbos; as Harry Hill would say "What are the chances?!?!".

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Thank you Tim, for the details. What I'm referring to was memories from the period and looking back at his results, I'm not shure everything was right after those early rounds. He qualified second at the round 4 Donington race to finish 10th. At the Brands Hatch August meeting he started 3rd from the grid to finish 11th, and more to the point, he didn't finish in the points beyond round 2 (from my still incomplete statistics but at least those top-6 point scores should be covered).

Donington - 2 driver race (2nd driver Andrew Gilbert-Scott). Ran second until just before driver changes, when rear nearside tyre deflated. Much time lost getting back to the pits.

Thruxton (2) - Pole, led until nearside rear deflated. Race was stopped some laps after Gravett's shunt, which happened while Brodie was leading.

Brands GP - Ran 3rd for quite a while, then faded. Not sure why, it isn't mentioned on the season review.

He was way back on the grid at Birmingham, around 10th, maybe.

4th on grid on Donington GP circuit, slipped back pretty quickly on a damp track. Was losing power and pitted.

R13 - Silverstone. Qual 10th. Got caught up in the Goode / Bristow incident with nowhere to go. Retired.

Seems to me that he had the power, but possibly too much for his rubber, and not much luck late on in the year. According to an interview (with Ian Flux?) in Motorsport a while back, the spec differences between the top cars and the privateers was very large. I don't know what backing DB had, but it never looked much.

He appeared for a few 1990 rounds, in a livery similar to the '89 Thruxton pictures shown recently in this thread. But now the car was a basic mat black with that silvery mid line now featuring quite prominently. A chance of any pictures of that livery?

Jesper

There's one on the supertouring history site, on the 1990 images page. It's only a front view, though. Peter Still has one of the '91 Sapphire.

We were parked up next to him at a Snetterton CTCRC meet a couple of years back. He was running a Sierra and a Sapphire then, for him and a chap who's name I forget. Turned up a day late, started from the back, and romped it. His Saph at least was dark green with some bright green fluoro stripes.

[KA]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Some of those pics are interesting in that they seem to use a 4 lug hub for the wheels instead of the almost universal centrelock... is that because the cars werent in full Group A trim, or the parts werent available/at the right price to make them the same?

There was some fiddling with wheel offsets and mudguards in the WTCC of '87... to try to get a 17" rim under the guards without fouling them... was wondering if that was part of the problem for the others... who look like they may be running 16" wheels...

I suspect it was purely down to budget- looking at those pics, the Hathaway car, Harvey's TDR car (which from memory ran with very little sponsorship in the first few rounds until Istel came on board mid-season), the Bell/McDowell ECM car (road-legal and also used in club racing) and the Jones/Asquith car were amongst the less well-funded on the grid

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes indeed, good aren't they!

The red/white 'road reg'd' car could also be Ray MacDowall at the wheel. I think his firm 'ECM Vehicle Delivery' owned and sponsored the car and they may have shared it? Hugh Chalmers may also have been involved?

Those are great pics- definitely a step up in quality from the ones I posted a while back for some of those cars! Interesting to see the ECM Sierra (think it was MacDowall, rather than Bell at Donington) was still battling with the MIL Supra like it was in the shot I posted...I'm guessing Gloves must have taken his pic within a lap or so of the one I got, but didn't underexpose his pics the way I did...

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

Those are great pics- definitely a step up in quality from the ones I posted a while back for some of those cars! Interesting to see the ECM Sierra (think it was MacDowall, rather than Bell at Donington) was still battling with the MIL Supra like it was in the shot I posted...I'm guessing Gloves must have taken his pic within a lap or so of the one I got, but didn't underexpose his pics the way I did...

If I only had brought a camara to early race meetings > "we woke up 3 hours before we went to sleep" (part of the Four Yorkshire Men, Monty Python)

Jesper

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

If I only had brought a camara to early race meetings > "we woke up 3 hours before we went to sleep" (part of the Four Yorkshire Men, Monty Python)

Jesper

Tell me about it...you wouldn't believe how many more pics pics I could have contributed to this thread if you could actually recognise the car I was trying to photograph in them.....

[chunterer]

Double that!!

I used to snap away in the Paddock and then on track action when I got my zoom lens (sadly long gone, last used in about 1997 at the Empire Trophy 3000/FIAGT meeting!!!)

Sometimes I wondered if I had been at a night race the exposures were so dark!!!

But I wish i'd taken some snaps of everything I saw for future posterity.

Ah well hindsight and all that......

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Double that!!

I used to snap away in the Paddock and then on track action when I got my zoom lens (sadly long gone, last used in about 1997 at the Empire Trophy 3000/FIAGT meeting!!!)

Sometimes I wondered if I had been at a night race the exposures were so dark!!!

But I wish i'd taken some snaps of everything I saw for future posterity.

Ah well hindsight and all that......

When ever I get my scanner to work/get a new scanner (not a chance for the moment), I'll show you some under exposured pictures, so just keep 'em coming.

Then I have a question regarding an RS500 from the 1988 Zolder EG Trophy ETCC race. Frank has unusual poor records for this round, but from the Duke DVD I can spot a #27 RS500 being white on top, and about an inch below the windows its blue (or green?). The number would apply to the Bavaria Automobiles/Dominique Fornages entry of earlier rounds, but was this Zolder car a re-painted BA car or something different?

Jesper

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Double that!!

I used to snap away in the Paddock and then on track action when I got my zoom lens (sadly long gone, last used in about 1997 at the Empire Trophy 3000/FIAGT meeting!!!)

Sometimes I wondered if I had been at a night race the exposures were so dark!!!

But I wish i'd taken some snaps of everything I saw for future posterity.

Ah well hindsight and all that......

Yep- the number of times since these threads started that I've gone searching for a pic that I thought I had, but haven't yet found it- and when I have, it's been so dark the car's almost unrecognisable...

Talking of pics, with the pics Gloves posted, we've now got decent shots of most of the well-known BTCC Sierra campaigners, and a few of the less-frequently seen ones, but there are still some we've not been able to turn up- for example the 3-car Terry Drury squad from 1988... (though there's a nice shot on Dave Pinkney's website of his car http://www.pinkd.co.uk/imagesfullsiz...ierraRS500.jpg

...and some of the rare ones- Mark Rennison, Stuart Donnan (think his was the ex-JQF/Fina car?), Rex Muldoon's rally-spec car at Silverstone at the end of '87, etc. A bit of a challenge then- anyone able to fill any of these gaps? I certainly don't have any of them

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Talking of pics, with the pics Gloves posted, we've now got decent shots of most of the well-known BTCC Sierra campaigners

...and some of the rare ones- Mark Rennison, Stuart Donnan (think his was the ex-JQF/Fina car?), Rex Muldoon's rally-spec car at Silverstone at the end of '87, etc. A bit of a challenge then- anyone able to fill any of these gaps? I certainly don't have any of them

Um, yes I think i've got a snap of the Muldoon car in front of, or following Chris Aylett's rented Brodie Station at the final round of '87 (the meeting where I spectacularly failed to capture that ex Marlboro Griffin Vitesse that has driven us mad in the Rover thread?!!!). Problem is I won't be able to post it until get a new scanner.

May also have one of Rennison. Thinking about it, he was actually a very good driver!! It would have been interesting to see how he managed to go in a better funded car as I recall he'd been out of action for while after his RS200 Rallyx programe had ended - he sold it to buy the Cossie as mentioned earlier in thread.

[Gloves]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Um, yes I think i've got a snap of the Muldoon car in front of, or following Chris Aylett's rented Brodie Station at the final round of '87 (the meeting where I spectacularly failed to capture that ex Marlboro Griffin Vitesse that has driven us mad in the Rover thread?!!!). Problem is I won't be able to post it until get a new scanner.

I can recommend the Canon LIDE90... not sure if its still a current model but produces some very good results , its very easy to use and not that expensive about £35 from Ebay..

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Um, yes I think i've got a snap of the Muldoon car in front of, or following Chris Aylett's rented Brodie Station at the final round of '87 (the meeting where I spectacularly failed to capture that ex Marlboro Griffin Vitesse that has driven us mad in the Rover thread?!!!). Problem is I won't be able to post it until get a new scanner.

May also have one of Rennison. Thinking about it, he was actually a very good driver!! It would have been interesting to see how he managed to go in a better funded car as I recall he'd been out of action for while after his RS200 Rallyx programe had ended - he sold it to buy the Cossie as mentioned earlier in thread.

I think Rennison was another optimist hoping to get a break from an under funded programme. At least he was very honest about his budget and prospects and left the scene after about half a season. Looking at the British and Australia scene - the two places where the RS500 was extensively used - my general view is that those who campaigned the RS Cosworth from the beginning had a head start on every body else. Andy Rouse was the man to visit in Britain and it took the Australian Dick Johnson equipment to ruffle his feathers. Graham Goode had what looked like a solid programme going, but ultimately never a match for Rouse and likewise for David Brodie. In Australia single seater exponent Andrew Miedecke was on the scene from the very beginning, but in his three seasons as an independent budgets were always tight. Colin Bond and Tony Longhurst came along in the second year, 1988, won a few races but somehow the biggest challenge to Dick Johnson superiority was that from Glenn Seton. He and his dad obviously had a lot of talent for developing equipment as shown by their future Falcon V8 results.

What I'm getting at is that the Sierra was never a "buy a kit and win races" as the BMW M3 was. In other words the solutions of making a race car out of the Ford Sierra was a lot more individual than that of the BMW M3 teams - and more interesting in my mind. And then I think the basic car - the 3-door hatch back design had that huge rear opening that can't have helped structural rigidity. The M3 looks rock solid in comparison. Here I'm in neat of some hands on experience, so please elaborate

Jesper

[davyboy]

I think the amazing thing to most of us [without inside knowledge] in this hemisphere was the pace of the DJR machines when they came to Silverstone. What did DJR spend on developing those machines ? Did they do it alone or was there someone in Europe assisting them. It just seems amazing that with so much riding against them [don't forget that this is the pre-internet age and information flow was nothing like it is today], they were able to develop a European car so much better than anyone in Europe could.

[chunterer]

It may already have been mentioned earlier in the thread (or another one!) but there were intricate differences in the build of the cars, and yes I think that budgets may have been slightly different priorities.

I mean the ATCC being Australia's big series with a fair amount of money spent compared to a pre set budget that Eggenberger and Rouse would have been working to even with Ford support.

Weren't the DJR cars running a different, but still homolgated, injection or Turbo system than the European cars as well?