[BTCC] Round Five, Croft 25-26 Jun, Races 13,14&15

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so you didn't specify a single measure to prevent boring processions as again major team boss and one if his drivers publicly stated the lack of overtaking

That's because they are not boring processions. I listed a number of ways to approach the series so that you don't see them as boring.

Yes - they stated there was a lack of overtaking. But that was for one race only.

As previously posted:

"We looked at race one [today] there's virtually no overtaking, so I think something has to be looked at for the future. The racing's very good but there is little overtaking".

So the 'criticism' is of a single race. And it's not clear if he is referring to the regulations or the circuit (or some other factor).
He does say the racing is good though.


Clearly you think the BTCC is a poor product at the moment, others disagree. Why put yourself through the pain of watching? I don't think you are going to change your perception, and I don't see TOCA changing its approach to the series either.
Maybe time to accept that -

To prevent the race thread(s) degrading further - possibly continue the discussion here - https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157247 ?

[billy bleach]

Does anybody really care about the snark fest ( or handbags) going on? Come girls calm down and take a look at yourselves

[mattcanary]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Appreciation of the quality that is already on the grid.
Acknowledgement that races can be contested fiercely without the need for excessive quantities of overtakes.
Recognition that BTCC is circuit racing, and adheres to the principles of.
Acceptance that damage and repair bills are not conducive to healthy grids.

Once you realise that 2022 NGTC BTCC is not the same product of the S2000 and earlier regulations, and take the time to observe the efforts being put into the racing by teams and drivers up and down the grid, it soon becomes apparent that we don't have boredom processions, but a quality of racing that far exceeds a lot of want went previously.

Is it different to previous iterations? Absolutely. That does doesn't automatically make it worse. The type of racing we saw previously in the BTCC is now reserved for stadium racing. If that's what you want, absolutely fine. But in 2022 you will find it in a stadium, not on a circuit.

If people find that BTCC is boring because driving standards are higher, then it may no longer be the right product for them. But it's not a monopoly - there is the right product out there. But that probably means looking outside of the TOCA package.

I never liked push to pass; not the deliberate type anyway.

There is a world of difference between that though, and a driver attacking the one in front, looking hard for an opening and making the driver ahead work hard to maintain the position.

It isn't so much increasing the number of overtakes, it is increasing the amount of action that is key, as far as I am concerned. Two subtly different things. Seeing a driver defend really well can also be very entertaining

Fearing he is going to start way down the field in the next race, if a move goes wrong, is not likely to lead to a racing driver take chances. Which ultimately is what he is doing if he is trying hard to overtake another racer. He will be not just putting faith in his own ability to pull a move off, but also in the ability/wiilingness of the defender to play fair.

I love drivers trying their best to overtake on the track as long as it is done fairly, (and I believe more often than not, it is possible to judge accurately whether this is the case or not - and it's not just down to whether the move was achieved successfully without contact).

The support series have generally been better than the BTCC this season - F4, Ginettas, even Porsches have regularly provided more entertainment. Ginettas in particular are great as well, because the cars are so hardy. Bonnets may fly off regularly, but the actual cars more often than not stay intact.
More often than not, the racing has been clean and conducted in good spirit. At Oulton, I called out Recee Sommerfield on this forum. What he did on the last lap was, I thought, disgraceful. To my eyes, he deliberately accelerated into the other driver once he had been overtaken in the run to the line, (after his own mistake), taking them both out. There is no place for that in motorsport - not the first time I have seen him do something like that.

Suppose I am trying to emphasise there is a world of difference between aggressive, fair racing and dirty racing. Stewards do have a tough job sometimes, but I'd say intent is far more important than outcome and more often than not, it's quite easy to tell the difference betweer a genuine attempt at a fair move gone wrong, and a push to pass/dirty manoeuvre

I loved the way that Ash Sutton used to race; Josh Cook too. They were aggressive and trying to put the car ahead under pressure. To me that is what BTCC racing is all about and drivers should be encouraged to race in this way,.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Come girls calm down and take a look at yourselves

Girls?

[SR18]

What I would like to see is a longer race, just like the diamond double. Maybe only a couple of times a year?

[mick bennett]

The big problems are:-


Some of the circuits are simply not upto the job.
There is simply nowhere to overtake without risks . Too narrow , too dangerous due to now high speeds involved .

Due to this the drivers are now very wary of being at the back of the grid in the next race, they therefore settle for where they are in the procession and the yawn fest continues .



The current cars are so closely matched nearly the whole field within a second of each other . Hybrid boost differences at the moment between the cars are minimal.They make no obvious difference to the racing. The Boost levels need increasing.

Therfore otherwise back to adding more weight to the fast cars, which makes Hybrid era no different from the last years cars, and a very expensive waste of time and money.



Over to Mr Gow ,and good luck on a solution, it needs to be done soon.

[S griffin]

The big problem is not so much making the cars equal, but making the cars equal in the same area. You need variables in cars to make the racing better. Getting rid of the RWD start advantage isn't a good idea in that respect

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Getting rid of the RWD start advantage isn't a good idea in that respect

It's interesting that RWD had their advantage off the line removed and we're now seeing a shift to them losing places on the early laps as they get pounced on by the FWD cars whilst they get the front tyres up to temperature. You could argue that FWD cars now have the advantage in the early part of the race - I suppose the theory is that RWD is kinder to tyres over a race distance therefore could make the places back later on.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Matt K

I can sense some "punishing solutions" for race winners.

Hmmmm....

Just a few punishment suggestions from my depraved mind:

1) 5 minutes fisticuffs with Matt Neal

2) run the next round on those totally sh1t3 Chinese tyres Kwik Fit knock out on the cheap

3) have to read all of Team #HARD's press releases from the past 12 months

Or the ultimate punishment.... 4) dress up as a Cornish pasty and get locked in t'commentary booth with Tim.

[thetool]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

It's interesting that RWD had their advantage off the line removed and we're now seeing a shift to them losing places on the early laps as they get pounced on by the FWD cars whilst they get the front tyres up to temperature.

That was usually the balance between FWD & RWD in the past. Overtaking from a grid start due to RWD advantage is not difficult so as "normal" overtaking gets more difficult (as it appears to have), then the disadvantage to the RWD cars in the opening few laps getting tyres up to temperature is lessened.

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

if you watch something in the mirror going left is still going left

Only if going up became going down!

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by mattcanary

When you get previously attacking drivers like Ash Sutton repeatedly saying and racing like they are more intent on staying out of trouble rather than fighting for places, it doesn't really sound as if things are in great shape.

That may be just a sign of him getting older and more "mature". However, The BTCC has prided itself on being full of entertaining racing previously, and hearing these comments regularly, (not just from Ash), rather detracts from that idea

Last year he certainly learnt how to use consistency over outright wins to get a championship and while that's still a factor this year it does seem like that car is still holding him back a bit at the moment.

If you're within a couple of points of leading the championship then it makes sense to settle for 6th or 7th but he wasn't and he lost out last weekend. Admittedly if he got lucky with the reverse grid draw it could have been a different matter, but lucky draws won't be part of a risk averse "bigger picture" strategy.

I don't think Ash was sitting in 6th by choice in the first two races. He seemed to be struggling to overtake and was left defending from Butcher quite a bit.

In my view it's a pity he couldn't have brought an Infiniti with him or maybe got that Jag together for this year.

One thing that did strike me about the racing at Croft this time was there seemed to be fairly large gaps a lot of the time between the touring cars up at the front. People are saying the cars are too evenly matched but look at the Ginettas - totally equal but with bumper to bumper racing up the front on the same circuit.

[S griffin]

Speaking of Ash, I saw his car on the back of a pickup truck in my hometown of Hatfield, just a stones throw from my place the other day. That was something I did not expect to see!

[3marinadrive]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Speaking of Ash, I saw his car on the back of a pickup truck in my hometown of Hatfield, just a stones throw from my place the other day. That was something I did not expect to see!

That's a show car that NAPA are using for various events - Rob Oldman who is Sutton's No.2 Mechanic owns a tuning company near Hatfield and his son has a transporter that they use to move the car around to events...so not a current race car...

[coppice]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

The big problems are:-


Some of the circuits are simply not upto the job.
There is simply nowhere to overtake without risks . Too narrow , too dangerous due to now high speeds involved .



Over to Mr Gow ,and good luck on a solution, it needs to be done soon.

Oh , it's the circuits 'shortcomings is it ? Narrow , too high speeds ? Poor darlings . Odd , though , how I've seen faster (much faster) and bigger cars at most of the circuits which BTCC graces with its presence. I don't know what people expect - constant overtaking ? I was at Croft and as BTCC goes it was just fine .

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by coppice

Oh , it's the circuits 'shortcomings is it ? Narrow , too high speeds ? Poor darlings . Odd , though , how I've seen faster (much faster) and bigger cars at most of the circuits which BTCC graces with its presence. I don't know what people expect - constant overtaking ? I was at Croft and as BTCC goes it was just fine .

I mean... BTCC cars have grown much wider since their inception, and for the most part, the circuits have not. Formula One and Monaco is a good example. Oulton in particular I look at and think, it would be so much better racing-wise to add a metre or two to the tarmac. Of course, others relish that 'old-school' nature!

I agree though that the Croft action was fine - perhaps not as much overtaking as I'd expect, but that's much better than seeing the dodgy moves we saw at Oulton.

[mick bennett]

Originally Posted by coppice

Oh , it's the circuits 'shortcomings is it ? Narrow , too high speeds ? Poor darlings . Odd , though , how I've seen faster (much faster) and bigger cars at most of the circuits which BTCC graces with its presence. I don't know what people expect - constant overtaking ? I was at Croft and as BTCC goes it was just fine .

Lucky u I must been have watching some other races then

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by Evantra

I mean... BTCC cars have grown much wider since their inception, and for the most part, the circuits have not. Formula One and Monaco is a good example. Oulton in particular I look at and think, it would be so much better racing-wise to add a metre or two to the tarmac. Of course, others relish that 'old-school' nature!

I'd much prefer that they made the cars, and the road going equivalents that they're loosely based on, narrower and smaller again, but I'm pretty sure cars are never going to fully return to that 'old-school nature' that I love.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by hen henths

I'd much prefer that they made the cars, and the road going equivalents that they're loosely based on, narrower and smaller again, but I'm pretty sure cars are never going to fully return to that 'old-school nature' that I love.

How long before we get an NGTC crossover

[thetool]

Well if you are looking to retain relevance to what people actually drive on the road then the BTCC should be either a series of mini-SUVs such as the: Ford Puma, Nissan Qashqai or Vauxhall Mokka or bloated mini hatchbacks (that are actually more like the size of mid-range/saloons of the past) like the: Vauxhall Corsa, Ford Fiesta, and Volkswagen Golf.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

Lucky u I must been have watching some other races then

I was there , which makes a big difference to my enjoyment , to the extent that only rarely do I waste an afternoon watching motorsport on TV , only F 1 excepted. . Were you watching on TV or there too?

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by Evantra

How long before we get an NGTC crossover

Eughh! I can totally see that happening.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by thetool

Well if you are looking to retain relevance to what people actually drive on the road then the BTCC should be either a series of mini-SUVs such as the: Ford Puma, Nissan Qashqai or Vauxhall Mokka or bloated mini hatchbacks (that are actually more like the size of mid-range/saloons of the past) like the: Vauxhall Corsa, Ford Fiesta, and Volkswagen Golf.

What like the RML Nissan Juke GTR!plus maybe the Williams F1 Espace and Ford Supervan!

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by thetool

Well if you are looking to retain relevance to what people actually drive on the road then the BTCC should be either a series of mini-SUVs such as the: Ford Puma, Nissan Qashqai or Vauxhall Mokka

No, no, don't give them ideas!

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by hen henths

No, no, don't give them ideas!

why not, wouldn't it be great ?