General Sportscar Chat thread

[deggis]

You missed the point, on purpose or not. If Graf wins P1, he doesn't win it for Muscle Milk?

Go to any winning team's history page e.g. on alms.com and you'll probably see "has won n Drivers' Championships".

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by deggis

You missed the point, on purpose or not. If Graf wins P1, he doesn't win it for Muscle Milk?

Go to any winning team's history page e.g. on alms.com and you'll probably see "has won n Drivers' Championships".

Granted it's not a normal scenario when titles are involved. But it's perfectly logical that Cosmo takes his earned points with him. Same thing happens in many series all over the world each season.

Vettel scored points for two teams in 2007. Happens in Nascar on a weekly basis. As other have said - it's a driver's championship. End of.

[deggis]

...happens in many series all over the world each season, where they don't change drivers in the middle of the races.

It just would make more sense if the entry (team) is the championship bet, and if they change it, then the driver starts from zero.

In addition might as well as rant about the WEC P1 Drivers' Championship: that nonsensical thing that the points get awarded based on overall positions. I wonder what P2 or GT drivers think about their chances of winning it?

[isynge]

Originally Posted by deggis

...happens in many series all over the world each season, where they don't change drivers in the middle of the races.

It just would make more sense if the entry (team) is the championship bet, and if they change it, then the driver starts from zero.

In addition might as well as rant about the WEC P1 Drivers' Championship: that nonsensical thing that the points get awarded based on overall positions. I wonder what P2 or GT drivers think about their chances of winning it?

I think this starts to talk to the reasons why historically the teams or manufacturers title has been seen as more significant than the drivers title in sportscar racing.

Thinking back to the classic years in the 1980s, drivers ferreting around for drives in various drivers championship points paying rounds was pretty commonplace (e.g. Henri Pescarolo primarily driving for Rondeau in 1982, but also showing up in a Joest 936C at Mugello).

I'm also not sure why the sort of journeyman driver who may well drive for multiple teams over the course of a season should be penalised in drivers championship terms?

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by deggis

It just would make more sense if the entry (team) is the championship bet, and if they change it, then the driver starts from zero.

Not in a DRIVERS championship it wouldn't. Genuinely don't see what the issue is.

This has literally happened since the start of motor racing championships.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Not in a DRIVERS championship it wouldn't. Genuinely don't see what the issue is.

This has literally happened since the start of motor racing championships.

And pretty much any other sport. If a player is traded in the middle of a season, his stats are his stats, and move with him to his new team.
I, too, don't see what the issue is.

[Miguel]

There shouldn't be a drivers' championship when one car is usually driven by multiple drivers anyway. The car should earn points, not the driver. But that's just my opinion.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Miguel

There shouldn't be a drivers' championship when one car is usually driven by multiple drivers anyway. The car should earn points, not the driver. But that's just my opinion.

I agree.
In sports car racing, the driver is one part of the team. (unlike Nascar, or Formula racing)
Maybe we should have individual points awarded to each race mechanic as well. They deserve to have their hard work recognized too!

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

And pretty much any other sport. If a player is traded in the middle of a season, his stats are his stats, and move with him to his new team.
I, too, don't see what the issue is.

I thought about this... but the opposite way: I'd compare goals etc. to fastest laps, laps lead or other stats like those. In team sports there are no individual championships really (awards for "best player of the season" etc. are not really the same thing and usually not purely based on stats anyway).

Originally Posted by Simmi

Not in a DRIVERS championship it wouldn't. Genuinely don't see what the issue is.

Real issue is that drivers' championships are useless and nobody cares about them. Things like this just detriments them more.

[Simmi]

Using that rationale - why do we care which drivers win Le Mans each year?

[isynge]

Originally Posted by deggis

Real issue is that drivers' championships are useless and nobody cares about them. Things like this just detriments them more.

Which, of course, is why people even bother debating them.

In fact I imagine Guy Cosmo would probably rather not have the points, and if he had a choice probably wouldn't want the title either.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Using that rationale - why do we care which drivers win Le Mans each year?

Notice that you said it in plural...

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Using that rationale - why do we care which drivers win Le Mans each year?

I don't.

[Aysedasi]

OK, well that's clear enough.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Miguel

I don't.

Outside of being a minor footnote, I'd agree, the drivers aren't the important piece of information. F1 is a driver's sport, a driver's championship. Sportscars is a manufacturers sport.

[Maelochs]

I woudln't say ALMS has been a manufacturers' championship-based series since ... 2009, when all the prototype-supporting manufacturers withdrew.

One could say it is all about the teams, perhaps. Muscle Milk certainly won the title this season ... I don't recall anyone here or anywhere else claiming a win for HPD.

In any case, a driver's results quite correctly belong to the driver, not the team, as it is in every other sport. A quarterback, for instance, is useless without a good protection and good receivers, but a quarterback's stats don't accrue to the linemen or receivers.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

In any case, a driver's results quite correctly belong to the driver, not the team, as it is in every other sport. A quarterback, for instance, is useless without a good protection and good receivers, but a quarterback's stats don't accrue to the linemen or receivers.

Yet the quarterback is not the only one to be counted as winning the super bowl.
The national championship goes to the entire team, not just the quarterback.

I think that season long sports car championships should work the same way, with points being awarded to each car, regardless of who's driving.

[Maelochs]

That might make sense for the team championship, but how would that make any sense for a drivers' championship?

And please don't stretch the analogy too far---the Super Bowl is a team championship. Not many other sports have driver, team, and makes championships running concurrently. That has top be taken into consideration.

Also, if a team swaps crew members, should it lose the points it gained while a particular left rear tire changer was on staff?

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

That might make sense for the team championship, but how would that make any sense for a drivers' championship?

And please don't stretch the analogy too far---the Super Bowl is a team championship. Not many other sports have driver, team, and makes championships running concurrently. That has top be taken into consideration.

Also, if a team swaps crew members, should it lose the points it gained while a particular left rear tire changer was on staff?

The problem with the teams championship, is that with two car teams, both cars count towards one team. I still think that each car should be counted as a separate "team".

[Salamus]

The Driver's Championship counts towards drivers. It doesn't matter if a driver switches teams/cars, he keeps his points because it is indicative of HIS PERFORMANCE throughout the season.

TRspitfirefan, it wouldn't make sense to count each car as a "team" since most cars keep the same driver line-up throughout the year.
As an example, look at the Grand-Am standings. Excluding Ganassi, the standings for the drivers and teams are near identical...doesn't make much sense really.

[FIRE]

New Dutch made silhouette GT race car:
www.supercarchallenge.nl/userfiles/library/image/2013/overig/2013_startmagazine_gtkiller.pdf

[joeb]

One of my pet peeves about sportscar series that re-evaluate bop after each round is the way team managers/owners/drivers complain in public about it. Amato Ferrari recently said the best thing a team owner could say on this topic in a recent Endurance-Info interview:

EI: Let us return to the FIA ​​WEC. The season is more complicated than expected. The BOP is a concern?

AF:"This is a delicate subject and I did not want to fuel controversy. What I can say is that we have clearly stated our position in the FIA ​​and the organization of the WEC. "

Handled perfectly in my opinion. They have complaints, and they told the FIA what they are. AF sees no need to publicly complain.

[CTD]

Agreed!

[carsten66]

I don't think the drivers' championships are careless. At least it's an accepted and widely recognised ranking that allows the drivers to promote themselves to get jobs...

[Tim the Grey]

Take a look at Blancpain Endurance Series? Several 2 car teams mixed drivers up at the last race to either ensure an outright winner, or guarantee a Drivers Title if one car failed to finish...
A Drivers Title is NOT a Team/Manufacturer Title, and never will be. Vive la Difference, I say.