[Rules] The FIA - what's occurring there?

[chillibowl]

i say this with love because i am truly a Massa fan, but what exactly is his legacy or what is the legacy that he may be hurting?

typically overshadowed by a stellar team mate, once finally out of MS' shadow, Kimi arrives and takes a title, came close the following year but no cigar in truly heart breaking fashion, then the accident/injury only to come back to then have Alonso as his team mate who also (like Kimi i think) won his first race as a Ferrari driver.

arguably his legacy is a radio message that pretty much summed up his career...that your team mate is faster than you!

a true underdog who wore his heart on his sleeve which for me is why i loved him. not quite a tragedy but certainly a career that fell well short of legend.

its his legacy so he can do with it as he wishes but imo this lawsuit maybe even adds to his legacy or rather speaks to a career of unfulfilled promise and as a life long sports fan and supporter of underdogs i find these types of stories incredibly compelling and worthwhile, warts and all, if that makes sense.

anyways, still of mixed feelings about all of this but talking about it, it clearly feels like im increasingly becoming more supportive of Massa.

[Aysedasi]

I'm with Richard. Likeable guy, sometime underachiever (admittedly against better teammates generally) but one of those people who left F1 with dignity and applause from most fans. I don't think this adds anything at all to whatever his legacy is (accepting that 'legacy' is a rather grandiose term in the circumstances), but rather that it detracts from the view I had of the man - in other words, I think he should be better than this and I suspect he's been poorly advised.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i say this with love because i am truly a Massa fan, but what exactly is his legacy or what is the legacy that he may be hurting?

typically overshadowed by a stellar team mate, once finally out of MS' shadow, Kimi arrives and takes a title, came close the following year but no cigar in truly heart breaking fashion, then the accident/injury only to come back to then have Alonso as his team mate who also (like Kimi i think) won his first race as a Ferrari driver.

arguably his legacy is a radio message that pretty much summed up his career...that your team mate is faster than you!

a true underdog who wore his heart on his sleeve which for me is why i loved him. not quite a tragedy but certainly a career that fell well short of legend.

its his legacy so he can do with it as he wishes but imo this lawsuit maybe even adds to his legacy or rather speaks to a career of unfulfilled promise and as a life long sports fan and supporter of underdogs i find these types of stories incredibly compelling and worthwhile, warts and all, if that makes sense.

anyways, still of mixed feelings about all of this but talking about it, it clearly feels like im increasingly becoming more supportive of Massa.

I view his legacy is that of a classic tragic hero.

That definition might be... Virtuous, flawed and to have suffered.

While nobody's life can be rolled up to a single moment, that portion of the last lap at his home race, at the end of the season in which he was champion... until he wasn't. He had given his all, and it almost worked out. The emotion on his Dad's face. That he accepted the situation on the podium. That race defines a core part of Mass in my mind. I still view him as a champion for those few seconds before Lewis crossed the line. Add in that he never achieved the championship in later seasons, plus his injury and return add to that story.

But by trying to re-litigate that moment, paints him not as the tragic hero who ultimately lost and someone that we can all sympathize with and feel his pain. But now maybe he might be seen somehow (not deservedly) as a sore looser. The Singapore results were not tossed out. I don't know if the expectation is that this would have been resolved prior to the last race (I can't remember the details and timing), but if thing had been different, so might the end of his season. Maybe he still wouldn't have won?

But if he really is trying to take hold of the 2008 championship, he is trying to undo too much after too much time has passed. If a court somewhere were to say "You Felipe Massa are now the 2008 F1 World Driver Champion", do you think it really would change anything for the better?

His legacy will not be the guy that should have won, but didn't. But the guy who was bitter and fought years later to recapture old glory the he felt he deserved.

If I were him, I would never have re-opened this. Or if he did, then say "I don't want the 2008 championship, that has been decided, I want there to be punishment for those that covered it up". Even then, I think too much time has passed and too many players are gone for any real retribution to be dished out in any satisfying way.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

one of those people who left F1 with dignity and applause from most fans.

Yes. So why ruin it right?

Richard

[chillibowl]

does any court actually have the authority or jurisdiction to overturn the 2008 championship results and maybe not even an FIA court would have the power to overturn an already ratified set of results?

so this has to about financial compensation for any potential lost income because something that should have happened in a timely fashion, an immediate investigation, didnt happen because the people that should have done something about it right away had other priorities.

and if thats it, i cant really hold it against him. its too common of a thing really...but to be honest, in this day and age and to my shame i must admit, i have for sure dismissed or minimized people for less.

but i love the guy so im ok with it. heck, would still root for him even if he robbed a bank only to get caught because his team mate was able to run away faster than him!

[TrapezeArtist]

When Massa first came into F1 he came in for a lot of stick for crashing. I defended him, being of the view that you can't expect anything else when you employ a fast-but-wild young driver. You just hope that he keeps his speed and reduces his propensity to crash.

Later in his career I was very unimpressed by him, perhaps mainly because I couldn't understand how any F1 driver could be so lacking in self-respect to accept the No 2 seat at Ferrari at that time. I even got into trouble with the moderators here for using a rude word about him.

By the end of his time in racing (and since) he seemed to have mellowed into a nice, unassuming second-string driver eking out the remainder of his career.

Now he seems to have re-invented himself as either a ****-stirrer of a money-grabber. I agree with others that he has probably been badly advised, but he didn't have to take that advice. Maybe he was hard done-by, but there have been plenty of injustices in Formula 1 over the years culminating in (possibly) the worst of them all at the end of 2021. All one can say now is that at least measures were taken to avoid a similar occurrence in the future, rather than ignoring it or sweeping the dirt under the carpet as tended to happen in the past.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

does any court actually have the authority or jurisdiction to overturn the 2008 championship results and maybe not even an FIA court would have the power to overturn an already ratified set of results?

Logically, there is no reason it couldn't happen in the right situation. Take Lance Armstrong. He had a number of Tour de France wins stripped years after he won them. Now you can view that as a single "event" vs. a championship, but I think the comparison is valid.

But to dig deeper, I think to have a title re-assigned years later would require a significant amount of "wrongs" to stack up. For example Lance won, but was considered the problem. So the wins were taking from him, but also not officially re-assigned to next in line. However, I am sure whoever is next in line might consider themselves to be the "winner" for each event in question.

For 2008 season, Lewis was not part of the "problem". The offenders (Renault, Briatore, Symonds and to a degree Piquet Jr.) all were punished and/or took serious or terminal career hits. Lewis had nothing to do with any of this. So how can he be punished? Now imagine another situation. Renault manufactured things to get Alonso the title and he captured it at the expense of someone like Lewis or Massa. There might be slightly more potential to strip Alonso at a later date, but the longer it goes, the less likely that would happen.

But it's a moot point. Alonso didn't win the title. It was Lewis. They are not going to pull the title from Lewis. Who else can they punish? Max and Charlie are gone. Bernie remains, but in all seriousness has enough money (and ability to play the "I am old and can't remember anything" card) to fight any negative outcome for the remainder of his life. And even then, it might be some slap on the wrist for Bernie. Next is the FIA/FOM who would claim both that too much time has passed that anyhow it was not them as an organization, but rather people acting on their own and outside of bounds of existing organizational rules. And even then, while there is the interview from Bernie, what other real evidence exists? So they would likely get off completely or lightly. Or it's about money (hush payout) which Massa continues to say it's not.

But it also doesn't mean that Massa might not find a court somewhere that decides it has jurisdiction that might rule in his favor and proclaim him 2008 F1 Champion, or King of France or whatever he wants and this gives him some type of "moral" victory. But like I say, is it really going to matter or change anything for the better?

Richard

[Greem]

I'm fairly sure that the original presentation of this case centered around loss of earnings and potential future earnings.

It's all about money. Someone's got in Felipe's head and it could end very very badly for him.

[Richard C]

Massa told he doesn't get to travel on F1's dime while he is suing them.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...itle/10514642/

Richard

[Aysedasi]

I don't think he ought to be surprised really....

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Logically, there is no reason it couldn't happen in the right situation. Take Lance Armstrong. He had a number of Tour de France wins stripped years after he won them. Now you can view that as a single "event" vs. a championship, but I think the comparison is valid.

great point. Agencies designed at protecting the integrity of sports leagues should exist and go after those who cheat and/or support those who cheat. Preferably in a timely fashion when possible.

Without such, issues stemming from cheating can and does linger for years to come as it is here sadly.

But F1 is more entertainment than sport so I guess none of this matters anyways. Maybe he is kind of a jerk for bringing it all back up again.

[wolfhound]

All 10 teams have passed the 2022 cost cap.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...-cap/10516548/

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

All 10 teams have passed the 2022 cost cap.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...-cap/10516548/

So much for the earlier rumours!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

So much for the earlier rumours!

My thoughts exactly Mike (I'd looked on here for comments after seeing the article on the Autosport Website!)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

All 10 teams have passed the 2022 cost cap.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...-cap/10516548/

Unacceptable! I know for a fact that <insert team that I don't care for> is cheating!!

Seriously, while it will continue to be an adapt and learn experience for everyone involved, I think the cost caps are working. I think those who have adapted the best and working the most efficiently are seeing benefits. I still think it is going to take a few years between having a stable set of rules and cost caps to see teams close the gap more. Someone is going to eventually crack the nut of what RBR is doing to make the car so quick (beyond Max).

Richard

[Tourer]

Good news that all the teams are within the cost cap regs this year. Must be a few relieved TPs about that.

I see that the FIA apparently increased the full-time staff in the cost cap compliance department from 4 to 10 this year, no question that it's a complex set of regulations and checking to be done.

Despite that complexity, it would be great if they could work out a way to confirm outcomes much earlier in the year each time - think that would be much better for the sport but I honestly don't know how realistic I'm being on that.

[Adam43]

If the norm becomes everyone passes every year then I guess the timing becomes less important.

I agree it would be nice to hear earlier, but done right is the greater priority.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Despite that complexity, it would be great if they could work out a way to confirm outcomes much earlier in the year each time - think that would be much better for the sport but I honestly don't know how realistic I'm being on that.

I took a look through the financial regulations. The reporting period for the teams is the full calendar year. I think teams are expected to provide their final report at the end of March the following year. In my quick search, I can't find anything that indicates when the FIA Cost Cap Administration will reach any conclusions. I expect they have not time boxed on their reviews so that they can use as much time as they see fit. But that also means if they become efficient at this it could be done earlier.

They could push the teams to do reporting (and reviews) more often, but given the caps are annual in nature, I don't think anything really matters until the final total of expenditures at December 31st.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

I would expect that it will become increasingly difficult for teams to report earlier and for the final FIA examination reports to be published whilst at the same time the FIA and FOM are extending the season. This year this season ends, effectively at the beginning of December.

[chillibowl]

of course tax and filing requirements deadlines are different everywhere but i suspect that the time frame to report are fairly similar everywhere. Canada it is six months after their fiscal year/accounting period ends. no doubt some places shorter some longer but i suspect not by much.

for sure tho, what their particular tax authority is looking for is not necessarily the same as to what the FIA auditors are looking at, but imo the point remains that in order to prepare consolidated financial statements, the back and forth between the various departments, internal vs external accountants, ensuring proper oversight and review etc...these things do take a fair bit of time.

and then once prepared and submitted, the FIA take their look, ask their questions etc so then its more time...7-8 months seems more than reasonable for this process to play out and well within the accepted time frame for this sort of financial reporting.

as the system evolves perhaps you can shave a few tenths off here and there but i doubt there will be a significant change to the time frame to where we are at now.

anyways, congrats to the teams on their compliance!

[Richard C]

Massa says its not about money. Rather, he wants the championship title.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/e...home/10517359/

Does this topic need it's own thread? Potentially pull it (and existing posts) out of this FIA thread?

Richard

[Greem]

"It's not about the money", excepting the fact he's got a stellar line-up of the world's best specialist sports lawyers on the case, and they won't be working gratis.

The single biggest issue for me is that if Crashgate had been handled differently during the 2008 season (or up to the 2008 FIA Gala night) then the resulting races would have been very different affairs. There is no certainty that the same results would have occurred, and no certainty that either Hamilton nor Massa would win the WDC, ergo the result should stand.

Given that, it can only be about the money.

[Gerard C]

With many, many lawyers involved saying they have a strong case its about a lot lot of money. Strong case of what? Collective madness or mass hallucination? Shouldn't they swap some very very good lawyers for very very very good schrinks? I find all this pathetic. As to bring the trophy home… better take a hike.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Greem

The single biggest issue for me is that if Crashgate had been handled differently during the 2008 season (or up to the 2008 FIA Gala night) then the resulting races would have been very different affairs. There is no certainty that the same results would have occurred, and no certainty that either Hamilton nor Massa would win the WDC, ergo the result should stand.

Not sure they can grasp this.

[Richard C]

If its about the trophy. Maybe someone can buy him one.



Richard