Future Grands Prix?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Yeah, I thought about a Hurricane. Maybe even go cold war and include an Avro Vulcan, but I don't think any are flying anymore.

Richard

Anything involving The Avro Vulcan would get my vote, I was a huge fan and yes, it does remind me of my childhood.

Originally Posted by Adam43

It still does taxi rides. Although that went a little wrong recently and nearly joined a road nearby!

Sorry to be pedantic but that was actually a different Vulcan which stopped 'flying' even longer ago...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Yeah, I thought about a Hurricane. Maybe even go cold war and include an Avro Vulcan, but I don't think any are flying anymore.

Not presently - although a one-time flight option is being considered for XH558 as part of relocation in the UK.

Two others are in a condition to be able to taxi:
XL426 is in the UK at London Southend Airport (Note, that's not in London )
XM655 is in the UK at Wellesbourne Mountford Airfield and regularly stands-in for filming duties. It was also used by pilots of XH558 for familiarity training. This frame was subject to a recent over-shoot of the taxiway.

If anyone in the US wants to get up close to see one - the following are all on display:

XM606 - Bossier City, Louisiana - Barksdale Global Power Museum
XM605 - Atwater, California - Castle Air Museum
XM573 - Ashland, Nebraska - Strategic Air and Space Museum

as well as the following in Canade:
XL361 - Goose Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador - CFB Goose Bay


So if we want to see a Vulcan at a future F1 race (vein attempt to keep this post on-topic ) - Omaha GP 2025!!!!

[S griffin]

No, nothing can beat the red arrows display team

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by S griffin

No, nothing can beat the red arrows display team

Oh, I don't know. I remember Concorde being quite a spectacle at Brands Hatch one year!

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

No, nothing can beat the red arrows display team

The reds are a shadow of what they used to be. Fine for the general public, but to regular air show goers, there is are better display teams out there.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Anything involving The Avro Vulcan would get my vote, I was a huge fan and yes, it does remind me of my childhood.


Sorry to be pedantic but that was actually a different Vulcan which stopped 'flying' even longer ago...

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I feel a bit out of the loop, so I don’t really know what you’re referring to, but from the rest I get the idea.
Seems so. The rage, the controversy. It’s clicks and views.

It’s also tiresome.

Having just come back from the triple header of Spa-Zandvoort-Monza, the crowd issues were vastly overplayed in the media and online. No surprises there though.

[S griffin]

Glad you had a good time at those races. Going to those three would be enough to make any F1 fan jealous

[crmalcolm]

Mexico City has signed a new three-year deal to keep a Formula 1 Grand Prix until at least 2025

'The first race under the new contract with the circuit Hermanos Rodriguez will take place on 27-29 October next year.[...] In its latest iteration, Mexico has always been twinned with the US Grand Prix in Austin, Texas, which will be the case again next season.'

[S griffin]

Good to have Mexico on for a bit longer, it has been a great re-addition to the calendar and has a great following down there. Just wish they didn't change the circuit so much

[chunterer]

The circuit could do with adding an extra half mile to the lap length!

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The circuit could do with adding an extra half mile to the lap length!

It was adequate when built but there is no longer any extension space around it.
If lap time is the issue then are the cars too fast over a lap.
Or is it space to overtake (cars too wide? or fast?) or is it too many cars and not enough space (cars too big?).
Some earlier GP's had 28 entrants or more....

The simple answer is in the car regulations. much cheaper solution then building bigger circuits.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Good to have Mexico on for a bit longer, it has been a great re-addition to the calendar and has a great following down there. Just wish they didn't change the circuit so much

Is five Grand Prix (in 2023) in North American too many?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chavez

Is five Grand Prix (in 2023) in North American too many?

Not if you're American.
You can spend nearly 22% of the season at home....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chavez

Is five Grand Prix (in 2023) in North American too many?

This is a can of worms. And given the historic Eurocentric nature of F1, anything that shifts the numbers away from Europe and also causes issues with historic races being removed from the calendar is always a heated topic. For example I am in the US, but I think it would be a travesty to loose Spa from the calendar. I think there is no right answer here.

So doing some imperfect analysis for 2023. If I use a basis of seven "continents" (Africa, Asia, Europe, North American, South American Antarctica and Australia), but also break out "middle east" given it is a region we commonly break out in discussions here, and lastly put Baku in Europe. I can show races per geo and geo races per billion population (my population numbers are rough, but probably close enough)

Percent of races
Europe - 42%
North America - 21%
Middle East - 17%
Asia - 13%
Australia - 4%
South America - 4%

Races per billion population
Australia - 32.3
Europe - 13.3
Middle East - 10.0
North America - 8.3
South America - 2.3
Asia - 0.7

Africa and Antarctica gets nothing.

The winners and losers are clear. Especially if you look at it based upon population. But I also know the above is not perfect at all and this may generate a good bit of gnashing of teeth from European fans as their percentage is shrinking. The biggest issue with my analysis is the question of interest. Interest in F1 is not evenly distributed. And interest needs to factor in somehow. If you ignore the emotion, then they need to balance races per demand.

Back to the topic of North America (Canada, USA, Mexico). Recent arguments has been that the demand for F1 in North America (really this means USA) has been low. But I don't think that is accurate. Miami was well attended. US GP at COTA was packed in my opinion. And who knows what will happen in Las Vegas (probably packed).

Lastly, as I point out in the US GP thread, I had to travel over 1,300 miles to attend my "Home GP". Miami would be slightly closer, but still significant distance when using European GP travel distances as baseline. The elephant in the room is that North America is huge from an area perspective and has a population that is close to all of Europe. And of course fans not in Europe (frankly in most the rest of the world) are pretty screwed when it comes to traveling to a "close" GP.

Overall, my comment is that five might be OK. Lets see what the attendance numbers are. But it also feels weird given for a long time it has been three, two or one (was it only Canada for awhile?) Frankly my biggest concern about those in the US are the cost. I think COTA is probably the most cost effective for general admission. I suspect Miami and Las Vegas may not be particularly price friendly for regular people.

Richard

[seanyb505]

I'm seeing ga prices for Las Vegas is something like $500, or roughly half of a giraffe. With prices like that I can't see it lasting more than a couple years anyway. As with any novelty, why not make a few dollars while the fad is hot. We'll resume your regular Europe and middle Eastern programming following this special presentation.

[NaBUru38]

I'm ok with North America having 5 races.


I'm not ok with 24 races total.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chavez

Is five Grand Prix (in 2023) in North American too many?

Five isn't too many, but 3 in the USA alone is

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Five isn't too many, but 3 in the USA alone is

How would you distribute (by country) five races in North America?

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

How would you distribute (by country) five races in North America?

Richard

This is hard....
Maybe two in the US at Austin and Vegas but include Miami as a Gulf of Mexico representative state and rotate the names calling it Cuban GP, GP of Dominican Republic, Jamaican GP, and Haiti GP..... Like Bernie did with San Marino...

They could simply go to a formal declaration of 3 GPs for each continent plus 5 traditional races (like Canada) and 1 rotating race each year. Africa would get three (include the Gulf states in Africa), Asia (Singapore, Baku, Japan), Europe 3 plus some traditional ones like Monza, Silverstone and Monaco, and then 3 for South America (Brazil, Bogata and Buenos Aires) and Australia can have three, maybe loan one to NZ.

That wouldn't upset the schedule to much....

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Races per billion population
Australia - 32.3
Europe - 13.3
Middle East - 10.0
North America - 8.3
South America - 2.3
Asia - 0.7

Africa and Antarctica gets nothing.

Great post BTW - I can’t add anything.

Except to say that this over representation down under needs to end. For heavens sake it adds nothing. Give it to Africa or Antarctica.

[Adam43]

Actually that is a rubbish joke. This is much better:

https://twitter.com/terriblemaps/sta...FsnDAquYKXhngQ

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This is a can of worms. And given the historic Eurocentric nature of F1, anything that shifts the numbers away from Europe and also causes issues with historic races being removed from the calendar is always a heated topic. For example I am in the US, but I think it would be a travesty to loose Spa from the calendar. I think there is no right answer here.

So doing some imperfect analysis for 2023. If I use a basis of seven "continents" (Africa, Asia, Europe, North American, South American Antarctica and Australia), but also break out "middle east" given it is a region we commonly break out in discussions here, and lastly put Baku in Europe. I can show races per geo and geo races per billion population (my population numbers are rough, but probably close enough)

Percent of races
Europe - 42%
North America - 21%
Middle East - 17%
Asia - 13%
Australia - 4%
South America - 4%

Races per billion population
Australia - 32.3
Europe - 13.3
Middle East - 10.0
North America - 8.3
South America - 2.3
Asia - 0.7

The question of where to host, and how many was posed in threads here:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157435
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157437

As stated in those threads, they were intended to be free from real-world debate, but undoubtedly this will have factored into some of the decisions.

From a fairly small sample size, the ideal season length seems to be just over 19 races. However, there is also a 'demand' for 37 venues to host a race.

So - my thinking is that a rotational calendar would make the most sense. Here's how I think it could work (not withstanding a LOT of real-world limitations).

Grp A contains 7 venues that host a GP every season. These are:
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
Red Bull Ring – Austria
Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
Nürburgring - Germany

Grp B contains 12 venues that host a GP every other season. These are:
Albert Park Circuit - Australia
Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
Intercity Istanbul Park – Turkey
Marina Bay Street Circuit - Singapore
Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
Circuit of the Americas - United States
Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
Hockenheimring – Germany
Hungaroring – Hungary

Finally, Grp C contains 18 venues that host a GP every third season. These are:
Shanghai International Circuit - China
Buddh International Circuit – India
MotorLand Aragón – Spain
Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya - Spain
Bahrain International Circuit - Bahrain
Yas Marina Circuit - United Arab Emirates
Fuji Speedway – Japan
Baku City Circuit – Azerbaijan
Autódromo Internacional do Algarve – Portugal
Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello - Italy
Miami International Autodrome - United States
Losail International Circuit – Qatar
Korea International Circuit - South Korea
Indianapolis Motor Speedway - United States
Dubai Autodrome - United Arab Emirates
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours – France
Jeddah Corniche Circuit - Saudi Arabia
Circuit Paul Ricard - France

[S griffin]

No, I don't think a rotational Calendar would work. Circuits should earn their place on the calendar. For me we should definitely have Britain, France, Monaco, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Canada, USA, Brazil, Japan and Australia on the calendar. The rest should be places where there is enough local interest, although there is nothing wrong with trying new places. And we should have no more than 19/20 races on the calendar

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

No, I don't think a rotational Calendar would work. Circuits should earn their place on the calendar. For me we should definitely have Britain, France, Monaco, Germany, Italy, Spain, Belgium, Canada, USA, Brazil, Japan and Australia on the calendar.

When you have 37 venues that have 'earned' their place on the calendar, how do you accommodate them all?

Even going off the countries you mention - the following have all seen a vote for inclusion:
Silverstone Circuit - United Kingdom
Circuit de Nevers Magny-Cours – France
Circuit Paul Ricard - France
Circuit de Monaco – Monaco
Hockenheimring – Germany
Nürburgring - Germany
Autodromo Nazionale di Monza - Italy
Autodromo Internazionale Enzo e Dino Ferrari – Italy
Autodromo Internazionale del Mugello - Italy
MotorLand Aragón – Spain
Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya - Spain
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps – Belgium
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve – Canada
Indianapolis Motor Speedway - United States
Miami International Autodrome - United States
Circuit of the Americas - United States
Autódromo José Carlos Pace – Brazil
Suzuka International Racing Course – Japan
Fuji Speedway – Japan
Albert Park Circuit - Australia


20 races with no space for the following?
Autódromo Hermanos Rodriguez - Mexico
Circuit Zandvoort – Netherlands
Sepang International Circuit – Malaysia
Hungaroring – Hungary
Autódromo Internacional do Algarve – Portugal


My point being - deciding on which venues should be included in a reduced length calendar is difficult.