BTCC 2024 News & Rumours

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

What about their raised ride height and the ballast box location?

IIRC, the centre of gravity adjustment had no relation to the ballast box location.
The changes were either a ride height adjustment, or an addition of weight to the bulkhead (independent of ballast box).

For further reference, BMW opted for a ride height (only) change so their ballast box would not have been affected anyway.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Oh yes quite possibly! However I presume the placement was the same (ie in a less than ideal location for weight distribution)

The regulations concerning the whole of the hybrid system, which I assume includes the battery, are all encompassing. This is it (5.2.25):

"This must be installed and operated in accordance with the Hybrid Installation Manual, the Hybrid Homologation Form and the Hybrid Operations Manual and any subsequent amendments, clarifications or directives issued by the BTCC Chief Scrutineer."

So, unless we have sight of the Installation Manual or any special directives from the scrutineer, who knows apart from WSR of course. But I seem to recall in the fairly recent video with Dick Bennets in their workshop that they did everything that they could do to create the right balance.

And I am guessing that what they did over the closed season to balance the car has been to the advantage of Colin Turkington whilst disadvantaging Hill. Turkington did say to Louise Goodman over the weekend that this year the front end has been far more to his liking, much like, I think he said, the car in 2019.

[Jon411]

Could be wrong but I am sure I vaguely remember something being said about the hybrid and how it needed to be installed level, so couldn't sit as far forward in the car as the ballast box did on the BMW. Don't quote me on that

[Robin Marriott]

Not a rumour or news but I really hope when either Sutton or Turkington are inevitably crowned champion, they’re presented the trophy by Andy Rouse.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Jon411

Could be wrong but I am sure I vaguely remember something being said about the hybrid and how it needed to be installed level, so couldn't sit as far forward in the car as the ballast box did on the BMW. Don't quote me on that

I'm not certain.

Peter Riches is quoted as saying: 'Likewise, the decision was taken to mount the battery in the space currently used for the ballast box. This avoids having to create new packaging space, and it was enabled by the decision to abandon the current system of success ballast from 2022.'

The images below show the installation location in the FK8 and Corolla - and then the BMW for comparison:

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The regulations concerning the whole of the hybrid system, which I assume includes the battery, are all encompassing. This is it (5.2.25):

"This must be installed and operated in accordance with the Hybrid Installation Manual, the Hybrid Homologation Form and the Hybrid Operations Manual and any subsequent amendments, clarifications or directives issued by the BTCC Chief Scrutineer."

So, unless we have sight of the Installation Manual or any special directives from the scrutineer, who knows apart from WSR of course. But I seem to recall in the fairly recent video with Dick Bennets in their workshop that they did everything that they could do to create the right balance.

And I am guessing that what they did over the closed season to balance the car has been to the advantage of Colin Turkington whilst disadvantaging Hill. Turkington did say to Louise Goodman over the weekend that this year the front end has been far more to his liking, much like, I think he said, the car in 2019.

I always watch the races on playback so I dont really listen to all the surrounding waffle that accompanies the races but occasionally there is a few golden nuggets of information leaked out (usually by Tim Harvey in comms in my experience), I think he said on Sunday that WSR had done work to lower the overall COG, work on the engine and work on the aero for the BMW. I mean the engine one I find confusing, why do work on the engine if all engines are bopped anyway?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I mean the engine one I find confusing, why do work on the engine if all engines are bopped anyway?

To make it more driveable, smooth out the delivery of power, make it better able to cope with heat, improve torque curve, improve reliability, adjust wear rates..........

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I always watch the races on playback so I dont really listen to all the surrounding waffle that accompanies the races but occasionally there is a few golden nuggets of information leaked out (usually by Tim Harvey in comms in my experience), I think he said on Sunday that WSR had done work to lower the overall COG, work on the engine and work on the aero for the BMW. I mean the engine one I find confusing, why do work on the engine if all engines are bopped anyway?

I believe that it is an updated version of the engine used previously, and they don't necessarily increase power but improve what is called drive-ability, i.e. give better torque over a certain rev range or better pick-up. They also may have improved the cooling as they said that when in close formation last year that it was a bit of a problem.

And Turkington himself talked about the improvements they made over the winter, which resulted in him being much more in his comfort zone. And as I said before, that work doesn't seem to have helped Hill, and I think that may be why he is struggling a bit; he probably overcome that during the season, though if he is as good as he thinks he is.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I believe that it is an updated version of the engine used previously, and they don't necessarily increase power but improve what is called drive-ability, i.e. give better torque over a certain rev range or better pick-up. They also may have improved the cooling as they said that when in close formation last year that it was a bit of a problem.

And Turkington himself talked about the improvements they made over the winter, which resulted in him being much more in his comfort zone. And as I said before, that work doesn't seem to have helped Hill, and I think that may be why he is struggling a bit; he probably overcome that during the season, though if he is as good as he thinks he is.

I recall them saying that the aero package was a problem in that it was tough when following other cars?

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

To make it more driveable, smooth out the delivery of power, make it better able to cope with heat, improve torque curve, improve reliability, adjust wear rates..........

All sounds good and makes sense, maybe fuel consumption too?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I believe that it is an updated version of the engine used previously, and they don't necessarily increase power but improve what is called drive-ability, i.e. give better torque over a certain rev range or better pick-up. They also may have improved the cooling as they said that when in close formation last year that it was a bit of a problem.

And Turkington himself talked about the improvements they made over the winter, which resulted in him being much more in his comfort zone. And as I said before, that work doesn't seem to have helped Hill, and I think that may be why he is struggling a bit; he probably overcome that during the season, though if he is as good as he thinks he is.

Isn’t it now the UK built Hams Hall motor as used in the Corolla?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Isn’t it now the UK built Hams Hall motor as used in the Corolla?

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, but I thought that the engine had to based on one of a type that is in current use in any of the range of cars by that manufacturer, i.e. a BMW engine in a BMW, a Toyota engine in a Toyota, etc. The exception would be the TOCA engines for those that do not wish to, or possibly afford to, use their manufacturers products.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, but I thought that the engine had to based on one of a type that is in current use in any of the range of cars by that manufacturer, i.e. a BMW engine in a BMW, a Toyota engine in a Toyota, etc.

Engine comes from a Toyota Supra, which has the same engine as a BMW Z4

[JDMROB]

It’s still the B48 BMW engine. Just using ones assembled in the UK now then taken to Neil Brown to work his magic. The engines they were using were from 2019 and built in Austria. No idea what internals they use.

The B48 is in both the WSR BMW and the Speedworks Corolla. It’s also in the JCW Minis!

It’s a BMW engine, Toyota just use it in their Supra.

[Mike Harte]

Thanks for correcting me; everyday is a learning day even though I'm in my dotage.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, but I thought that the engine had to based on one of a type that is in current use in any of the range of cars by that manufacturer, i.e. a BMW engine in a BMW, a Toyota engine in a Toyota, etc. The exception would be the TOCA engines for those that do not wish to, or possibly afford to, use their manufacturers products.

Plenty of OEM models use engines originating from other OEMs though, and have done for decades, though.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Plenty of OEM models use engines originating from other OEMs though, and have done for decades, though.

Thank you for trying to teach a grandfather (and yes before you start nit-picking and telling me how much you know, I already know that it's supposed to be grandmother) how to suck eggs, because I am well aware that manufacturers use others' engines. In fact, about 25 years ago I had a Volvo that had a Renault straight 6 engine - or was it a V6, I can't remember now and it's not important for this discussion - so I was well aware of the practice.

What I was unaware of was that Toyota used a BMW engine in one of their cars.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

What I was unaware of was that Toyota used a BMW engine in one of their cars.

its much more than use just the engine
its the whole driveline and chassis

in fact the bmw z4 and toyota supra roll off the same production line in austria

the main difference is some of the interior trim and the exterior bodywork

just think of the supra as the z4 coupe or the z4 as the supra convertible

[Robin Marriott]

Bobby Thompson announcing an announcement just now in Twitter.

Big news on Thursday.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

Bobby Thompson announcing an announcement just now in Twitter.

Big news on Thursday.

What I would give for it to be WSR…

[Robin Marriott]

Fingers crossed.

[MarcusH26]

Looks like from the pic like it's not the works Team BMW colours if it is WSR....

[coffinpilot]

Interesting to note that the cars didn't do the thing that came in at Donington. The stop at the back of the grid, line up, then go to their grid slot on the electric motor.

Never going to work. They need to ditch being stubborn and admit it's just an excitable overtaking device that has zero (not net-zero) green credentials!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Thank you for trying to teach a grandfather (and yes before you start nit-picking and telling me how much you know, I already know that it's supposed to be grandmother) how to suck eggs, because I am well aware that manufacturers use others' engines. In fact, about 25 years ago I had a Volvo that had a Renault straight 6 engine - or was it a V6, I can't remember now and it's not important for this discussion - so I was well aware of the practice.

What I was unaware of was that Toyota used a BMW engine in one of their cars.

OK grandfather, understood. To be fair, I was surprised you didn't know.

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, but I thought that the engine had to based on one of a type that is in current use in any of the range of cars by that manufacturer, i.e. a BMW engine in a BMW, a Toyota engine in a Toyota, etc. The exception would be the TOCA engines for those that do not wish to, or possibly afford to, use their manufacturers products.

Toyota would likely struggle to use an actual 4-cylinder Corolla engine in the Corolla, given they are low-revving hybrids and run on the Atkinson cycle.

The BMW out of the Supra makes more sense given it's the right capacity and turbocharged.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by MagicBoy

Toyota would likely struggle to use an actual 4-cylinder Corolla engine in the Corolla, given they are low-revving hybrids and run on the Atkinson cycle.

The BMW out of the Supra makes more sense given it's the right capacity and turbocharged.

But it doesn't need to be from the Corolla, though; it could be from any of their range.

But this brings up another query that I don't know the answer to, and that is can teams use a manufacturer's engine that has as standard a larger capacity, but then reduce the capacity to meet the 2 litre measurement?

Oh, and while scrolling through the technical regulations looking for an answer to the above question - it's not there that I could see, I think that it is a another set of regulations available only to teams - I did notice that rear wheel drive cars are subject to specific start rules, although, again, they are not for public viewing so we don't what they are.