IMSA Race 2018 Mobil 1 Twelve Hours of Sebring presented by Advance Auto Parts - Mar 14-17

[chernaudi]

Hence IMO the dangers inherent in BOP'ing to lap time alone as opposed to how that time is achieved.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I'm sorry to repeat myself but this is quite simply untrue. Once again, a single lap says nothing about a car's performance relative to other cars because you don't know the specific unique circumstances of that lap.

The specific circumstances of that lap don't matter. That single laps shows, irrefutably, what kind of speed a given chassis/engine combination is capable of under the current restrictions. When you calculate averages over a handful of laps you have too many variables to account for that we, as observers from the outside, have no ability to account for.

If a given chassis/engine combination is not capable of a given speed, it will never post that speed EVER. The fastest lap of the weekend is the clearest possible evidence of what kind of speed a given package is capable of that we have access to.

There are no unique circumstances a lap can provide that will propel a car faster than it is inherently capable of going. NONE. This is why the fastest laps are so much more informative than you're willing to acknowledge.

[Ospi]

The race is what matters and the raw pace of the cars in racing conditions is what should be balanced. utilising data from each make with their quickest drivers on board is the best way to evaluate and taking averages is the most reliable way to come to these conclusions as they act as a filter on variables which can be deemed unreliable, such as looking at a single lap over the course of the weekend. Governing bodies use averages to evaluate their BOP (and I've received ACO reports on BOP using these methods for these reasons). Utilising data averages to come to these conclusions is substantially more reliable than single laps and it would mean a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics to believe the opposite to be true with what is trying to be achieved with BOP.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

You're more forgiving than me. I thought that historics field was garbage.

You're garbage.

Was it just average compared to other historic event entry lists?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

There are no unique circumstances a lap can provide that will propel a car faster than it is inherently capable of going. NONE. This is why the fastest laps are so much more informative than you're willing to acknowledge.

There are however an uninmaginable amount of circumstances to make another car NOT achieve their ultimate one lap pace in a race. A car's performance envelope does not exist in a vacuum, the entire foundation of BoP is about balancing cars to eachother.

But as another poster said, you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of statistics. Either that, or (and this is what I deem more likely) a pathological need to defend IMSA from criticism at any cost. Either way, as far as I'm concerned there's no point in going on with this discussion.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by fergus_r

Back from my second trip to Sebring. I generally thought the racing was far better than last year- both the supports (especially the Porsche race on Friday) and the main event itself were all very good.

It leaves a little to be desired as a spectator facility- some key corners like Turn 1 and Turn 17, two of the most spectacular, are difficult to view from due to various reasons, and they STILL haven't sorted out a PA for the circuit- seriously, for a big event like this I find that unacceptable. Signal was too poor/non-existent to load up IMSA Radio on the phone on race day.

I thought the Historics were a great addition and filled what would have been empty space very nicely. Great mix of cars and a decent number of them, with some good racing and some interesting lines through the hairpin!

That GT3 race's showdown was telegraphed from a loooooong way back, enjoyed every second of it and it happened right in front of my eyes!

Agreed on the spectator options at both turns but I'm far more familiar with the situation at 17 - there were plenty of folks trying to catch a glimpse of the action from the bridge walls - and were subsequently ordered to move. There's room on both the in- and outside to set up a bleacher or two although the prospect of fences going up is not the most desirable either (and that prospect is already very real with the FIA coming back into town). It's my understanding SIR president Wayne Estes takes fan input very serious so make sure you drop him a note about it.

I was able to hear the PA on the inside of 17 (with my radio headphones on most of the time) on a somewhat regular note when there was no car(s) going by for a few seconds. Not a clue about other spots around the track but agree that it is especially vital in busy spectator areas.

Historics were fun - as always - although it wasn't the greatest grid I've ever seen at Sebring. Downsize was that they were squeezed in, taking considerable time outta of already limited downtime on Thursday, the dinner break was not worth mentioning which made for a very long and hard day. It won't be any different next year I'm afraid...

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

You're garbage.

Was it just average compared to other historic event entry lists?

Far below average. There were like maybe three cars out there worth getting slightly aroused by.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Agreed on the spectator options at both turns but I'm far more familiar with the situation at 17 - There's room on both the in- and outside to set up a bleacher or two although the prospect of fences going up is not the most desirable either (and that prospect is already very real with the FIA coming back into town).

I was talking with someone who said there used to be bleachers inside 17 ... must be more than ten years ago.

T1 inside has been taken over by Hospitality suites and motor homes, and outside, by motor homes. I think there might be bleachers between One and Two on driver;s left (I think I was there last year or year before) but it is pretty far upstream ... i should look for the pics---i think i could see the cars exiting One.

[fergus_r]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

You're more forgiving than me. I thought that historics field was garbage.

Well, it's never going to get anywhere near the same quality of a big historic event like the Classic 12 hour.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Originally Posted by fergus_r

Well, it's never going to get anywhere near the same quality of a big historic event like the Classic 12 hour.

I was simply comparing it to past historics that I had seen at Sebring during the 12 hour. I didn't intend to come off as a jerk with my comment. I just busted my tail to get down there in time for it on Wednesday and wished I'd slept in a bit more instead.

[fergus_r]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

I was simply comparing it to past historics that I had seen at Sebring during the 12 hour. I didn't intend to come off as a jerk with my comment. I just busted my tail to get down there in time for it on Wednesday and wished I'd slept in a bit more instead.

Didn't come across as a jerk comment at all- I assume you didn't see the entry list before the weekend? May have given you a bit more sleep!

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

There are however an uninmaginable amount of circumstances to make another car NOT achieve their ultimate one lap pace in a race.

EXACTLY my point! Without measuring equipment that we, as observers, don't have access to, there are too many variables in an actual race to be able to adequately infer whether or not a lack of performance relative to others is caused by the BoP, a bad setup, or a bad driver.

But when we look at the fastest laps of the entire race weekend, we know what each and every car is capable of under the existing restrictions.

A car's performance envelope does not exist in a vacuum, the entire foundation of BoP is about balancing cars to eachother.

And guess what comparing the fastest lap times of each and every car helps to do?

But as another poster said, you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of statistics.

I understand statistics very well. I also understand all too well how important it is to account for variables in order for statistical analyses to actually mean anything.

If you can't account for all the variables, then your statistics don't mean anything. That's the problem with trying to compare average laps during the race.

Either that, or (and this is what I deem more likely) a pathological need to defend IMSA from criticism at any cost.

I find it absolutely hilarious that anyone would think I have a "pathological need to defend IMSA" given how close I've come to getting kicked off of here for how far I've gone in criticizing them in the past. (and those criticisms have not gone away, for the record)

Either way, as far as I'm concerned there's no point in going on with this discussion.

Well, if you don't want to consider the opposing viewpoint, that's not my problem. I've repeatedly outlined the flaw in your logic, but instead of addressing it, you've insisted on attacking my assertion repeatedly without providing anything to actually support the point.

You weren't even willing to point out the ONE thing that can skew the data on fastest lap analysis; Sandbagging. (which, given the fastest Cadillac lap, I think we can reasonably rule out having been an issue in DPi this particular weekend)

[Matt]

It must be a very cold day in Hell, because I find myself agreeing with FF.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

You weren't even willing to point out the ONE thing that can skew the data on fastest lap analysis; Sandbagging. (which, given the fastest Cadillac lap, I think we can reasonably rule out having been an issue in DPi this particular weekend)

He didn't need to.

Never mind if your argument had any fundamental validity to it we would never have a 3.5L Honda in a Ligier or a 5.5L Chevrolet in a Dallara because the 3.2L and 6.2L were just as balanced on fastest lap of the weekend, let alone the utter inanity of comparing day time laps to the handful of cars that got a clear lap in night practice when the track was much faster.

Originally Posted by Matt

It must be a very cold day in Hell, because I find myself agreeing with FF.

Well you do whatever you have to, don't you?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

He didn't need to.

Never mind if your argument had any fundamental validity to it we would never have a 3.5L Honda in a Ligier or a 5.5L Chevrolet in a Dallara because the 3.2L and 6.2L were just as balanced on fastest lap of the weekend, let alone the utter inanity of comparing day time laps to the handful of cars that got a clear lap in night practice when the track was much faster.

Honda's previous engine was balanced against a SLOWER class of cars. The 5.5L in the back of the Caddys is just a destroked version of last year's engine. These changes don't say anything about how well balanced the cars were or were not - there were other reasons for them.

Now, look, I need to make clear here that I'm not saying that the fastest laps of the weekend are the BEST way to measure how the BoP is working out. It's not, it's only the best point of measurement the outside observer can use.

The things EffectiveSprinkles claims we should be looking at WOULD be the best way to measure IF you could account for all those variables. Something we, as outside observers, simply CANNOT do - we don't have the data needed to do so.

The only thing that is clear enough of variables for us to be able to put any faith in are the fastest lap times - potential sandbagging is the only variable we need to account for, and the overall circumstances of the weekend can rule that sufficiently well enough to consider them reliable.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Honda's previous engine was balanced against a SLOWER class of cars.

What the everloving crap are you talking about?

FIA WEC 6 Hours of Circuit of the Americas Qualifying LMP1 & LMP2
Ligier Honda JS P2 (2.8L) - 1:56.700

IMSA Weathertech SportsCar Championship Lone Star Le Mans Qualifying Results
Ligier Honda JS P2 (3.5L) - 2:02.595

The AR35TT is just the HR35TT rebranded.

[nezy37]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I was talking with someone who said there used to be bleachers inside 17 ... must be more than ten years ago.

T1 inside has been taken over by Hospitality suites and motor homes, and outside, by motor homes. I think there might be bleachers between One and Two on driver;s left (I think I was there last year or year before) but it is pretty far upstream ... i should look for the pics---i think i could see the cars exiting One.

General viewing isnt the best. Didn't see anything near 17 other than what I was able to catch walking over the bridge. What I did see was awesome, amazing corner to seen in person but it's completely locked down by the Porsche and corvette corals which is a bummer.

I knew a guy that was able to get me in the hotel, and then up to a room on the third floor for a bit to watch the hairpin. The highlight for me was catching a hole in the rv parking outside turn one at sunset. Got a few good pictures, was really hoping to see that view when I found out I was going and I'm glad I got lucky enough to find that spot.

In general though, and to be fair I haven't been to a ton of circuits around the country, the sightlines for general admission aren't very good.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

What the everloving crap are you talking about?

FIA WEC 6 Hours of Circuit of the Americas Qualifying LMP1 & LMP2
Ligier Honda JS P2 (2.8L) - 1:56.700

IMSA Weathertech SportsCar Championship Lone Star Le Mans Qualifying Results
Ligier Honda JS P2 (3.5L) - 2:02.595

The AR35TT is just the HR35TT rebranded.

What am I talking about? The fact that this is the first season the Honda engine has been in the back of a car under the current specifications. Which are FASTER in IMSA than the old LMP2 and DPs were.

All you've done there is provide an example of how bad the Conti tires are. For the record, IMSA's pole time at COTA last year was 1:54.809 by the WTR Cadillac. The fastest LMP2 was 1:56.884.

[RedSquirrel]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

For the record, IMSA's pole time at COTA last year was 1:54.809 by the WTR Cadillac. The fastest LMP2 was 1:56.884.

The second part of this is simply not true. The fastest LMP2 lap from the WEC race was 1:53.081 by Bruno Senna. In fact, eleven drivers set a time faster than that Ricky Taylor time.

If we talk about race laps only, then the fastest were Jordan Taylor with 1:57.198 and Nico Lapierre with 1:55.427.
Times from the usual sources: http://imsa.alkamelsystems.com/ and http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/ .
What even is the point of mentioning the races at COTA anyway?

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by nezy37

General viewing isnt the best. Didn't see anything near 17 other than what I was able to catch walking over the bridge. What I did see was awesome, amazing corner to seen in person but it's completely locked down by the Porsche and corvette corals which is a bummer.

I knew a guy that was able to get me in the hotel, and then up to a room on the third floor for a bit to watch the hairpin. The highlight for me was catching a hole in the rv parking outside turn one at sunset. Got a few good pictures, was really hoping to see that view when I found out I was going and I'm glad I got lucky enough to find that spot.

In general though, and to be fair I haven't been to a ton of circuits around the country, the sightlines for general admission aren't very good.

I'm glad you got to enjoy some of the most spectacular sights around the track - as limited as they might have been.

There's a bit of a spectator viewing area incl. bleacher on the exit of 17 on drivers left but it's kinda far away from the track, however it also gives you a view of the S-F straight I believe. Any viewing on the outside of the turn would be marred by fencing though unless the current distance will be maintained.

The area right before the bridge also on drivers left is maybe even more tricky due to cars still shedding speed and turning in at the same time - on the many occasions one of them gets it wrong it almost always ends in tears with a close up visit to the tirewall, having debris from one of those hits flying straight is certainly not unthinkable. Further away from the track, the area is occupied by - you guessed it right - more RV's, probably team/participants this time but imo a prime location for a medium sized bleacher without having to put up major fencing. And it's right where the shuttle trams pass by (almost where the starting/turning point of their route is).

[And just as a FYI: The area right before and under the bridge (both sides actually) has been "promoted" to photographers's 'Red Zone'.]

I was once again privileged to see the bumps and dips in 17 up close as one of the positions we cover as corner workers is '17 bridge' (on drivers right, directly in front of the big advertising sign) which is mainly a communication spot; seeing the cars bounce over everything is a sight to behold, especially as we stand maybe 5 feet from the racing line (behind the concrete wall obviously) - I can almost high five the cars as they come thru! Best spot in the house by far!

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I was once again privileged to see the bumps and dips in 17 up close as one of the positions we cover as corner workers is '17 bridge' (on drivers right, directly in front of the big advertising sign) which is mainly a communication spot; seeing the cars bounce over everything is a sight to behold, especially as we stand maybe 5 feet from the racing line (behind the concrete wall obviously) - I can almost high five the cars as they come thru! Best spot in the house by far!

That's a pretty good spectator area too ... thought they are 20 feet behind the wall, behind the white wooden fence. I watched Friday morning practice from there.

Driver's left through 3-4-5 is good too. Inside 10 too

[MaskedRacer]

Just watched the first hour of part 2 of the Sebring youtube race reply. The GTLM battle was awesome and very intense during that period. Got lots of TV time too. Made me very happy to see.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by RedSquirrel

The second part of this is simply not true. The fastest LMP2 lap from the WEC race was 1:53.081 by Bruno Senna. In fact, eleven drivers set a time faster than that Ricky Taylor time.

If we talk about race laps only, then the fastest were Jordan Taylor with 1:57.198 and Nico Lapierre with 1:55.427.
Times from the usual sources: http://imsa.alkamelsystems.com/ and http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/ .
What even is the point of mentioning the races at COTA anyway?

Where did I say anything about WEC in my comparison? Answer: NOWHERE.

Here, verify my numbers for yourself. IMSA COTA qualifying results from 2017: http://results.imsa.com/Results/17_2...03_Results.PDF

I used COTA because Carbsmith used COTA. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Adam43]

Perhaps we should have a separate thread about BoP, or whatever tangent is currently being argued about at the moment. The internet isn’t a competition. It’s drowning out interesting posters thoughts about their Sebring experiences.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Perhaps we should have a separate thread about BoP, or whatever tangent is currently being argued about at the moment. The internet isn’t a competition. It’s drowning out interesting posters thoughts about their Sebring experiences.

It's been the same exact things from the same people since the first race in 2014. :\