IMSA DPi Discussion

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Because the second hand spec Zytek engine and all the barebody chassis won't have OEM politics powers and money like the Chevrolets and Mazdas and Hondas do.

Theory doesn't equal reality.

You beat me to it. The heavily invested manufacturers will have a say as methinks. Otherwise why invest if your going to get beat by a generic unbranded car?

[Maelochs]

I have read in a few places that IMSA was planning to BoP both older cars and P2-Gibsons to be slower than DPis, which is the premise of all my musings here.

Had I not read that, I would have assumed what is only reasonable, that all cars regardless of chassis type, would be BoP'd to be equal---you know, the way IMSA has always done things.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

would be BoP'd to be equal---you know, the way IMSA has always done things.

Grand-Am.

There certainly was annoyance o' plenty in final years in ALMS in LMP, you know we can all remember 2011 for example with cheap Dysons getting restrictor breaks every other weekend against the easily more superior yet fragile Pickett, but the intention wasn't to make it all dead equal, and no-one certainly dragged cars to wind tunnel performance balancing and RPM dyno after someone accidentally moved rear wing two centimeters to different direction. And yeah you might have had LMP2s brought to the level of LMP1s in few years, but that wasn't in-class BoP, but between class much like LMP900/LMP675. I don't remember some crappy Lola AERs conquering Audis or whatever.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I have read in a few places that IMSA was planning to BoP both older cars and P2-Gibsons to be slower than DPis, which is the premise of all my musings here.

Had I not read that, I would have assumed what is only reasonable, that all cars regardless of chassis type, would be BoP'd to be equal---you know, the way IMSA has always done things.

Really, and where did you read that the NEW '17 cars would not be balanced against each other in the IWSC? As EVERYTHING I have read says otherwise. Unless of course you are talking about someone's opinion on/in a board/chatroom.






L.P.

[Speed-King]

I don't remember some crappy Lola AERs conquering Audis or whatever.

Intersport got some of the most absurd restrictor breaks in racing history... (I am only slightly exaggerating)

[joeb]

I didn't realize that Oreca's US base was at the CORE headquarters. Could this lead to some additional interest by CORE in running a new P2?

From S365 article:

He said the company currently has an office at CORE autosport’s headquarters in Rock Hill, S.C., near Charlotte, with a dedicated staff member who attends all WeatherTech SportsCar Championship races.

[Maelochs]

I wasn't being too serious. IMSA for the past two years had basically crippled P2s, and this season ... who knows?

Maybe they got it right and ESM only won through professionalism and having Pipo Derani ... or maybe the BoP is now too far the other way.

I really hate not knowing.

I had a lot of complaints about ALMS, but their BoP was never one of them .... maybe sometimes the number of waivers they passed out in GT2-GTE, but they actually let the prototypes run to the rules, not to a chart of values designed to make sure each was basically spec in performance.

That's why I am so eager to get a single top spec in IMSA ... so I can actually celebrate a race winner, not a lottery winner.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I have read in a few places that IMSA was planning to BoP both older cars and P2-Gibsons to be slower than DPis, which is the premise of all my musings here.

Had I not read that, I would have assumed what is only reasonable, that all cars regardless of chassis type, would be BoP'd to be equal---you know, the way IMSA has always done things.

It has been said by IMSA brass in articles that the 2017 cars will not be BoP'd with the 2016 cars, which will be down 100 HP or so to the new cars.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

That's why I am so eager to get a single top spec in IMSA ... so I can actually celebrate a race winner, not a lottery winner.

100% agree!

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

this assumes all the different power plants fit under the engine cover, and all the necessary scoops and radiators are fed.

Mazda's downfall with the diesel (one of them I guess) was that it didn't fit well in the Lola engine bay and didn't get enough cooling (ran much hotter than the gas-fueled AER-Mazda motor) and cooked itself.

IMSA simply needs to BoP the P2s to be competitive, which it might have said it won't do ... who knows who to believe any more?

it would be required just a modified rear subframe to fit larger twin turbo engines, but won't be nothing special! look at the ligier that already covered 4 kind of different engines (nissan, judd, HPD 2.6, HPD 3.5 twin turbo).

[Deleted]

If the DPs are re-allowed after all, the 2014-16 BoP situation in the top class will seem like a minor nuisance in comparison to jamming these in one:

2017-OEM-P2
2017-ACO-P2
Pre-2017-Coupe-P2
DPG3
Deltawing

[Lanky Turtle]

Originally Posted by Chiana

If the DPs are re-allowed after all, the 2014-16 BoP situation in the top class will seem like a minor nuisance in comparison to jamming these in one:

2017-OEM-P2
2017-ACO-P2
Pre-2017-Coupe-P2
DPG3
Deltawing

I haven't seen anything that says the DeltaWing will still be eligible in 2017, or DPs. The only teams that would benefit from grandfathering DPs would be Highway to Help and Alegra, as the other teams, AXR, WTR, and Visit Florida seem to be the ones aligning with DPis.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BullMan

It has been said by IMSA brass in articles that the 2017 cars will not be BoP'd with the 2016 cars, which will be down 100 HP or so to the new cars.

There is not 100 hp difference between the current IMSA BoP and the new DPi spec. IMSA is already running at 600 hp, which is the new P2 Gibson engine spec.






L.P.

[Deleted]

DW will be eligible if Don says he wants to enter it. Just like he will be eventually allowed to enter the "GT" DW too whether or not that has any road models or conforms with any tech regulations. He's got the free lunch ticket.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Chiana

DW will be eligible if Don says he wants to enter it. Just like he will be eventually allowed to enter the "GT" DW too whether or not that has any road models or conforms with any tech regulations. He's got the free lunch ticket.

Not the right thread, but, you sure hope they take the (visual) Abusey and put the DW front end on it, don't you? No lunch ticket, but lunch would be lost anyway.

[Rcz]

Who would be using old G3 DPs? Back markers?


Look, we all know what IMSA should be doing, and that's is owning the P2 class that the ACO is discarding.

Discard the chosen 4 rule. Allow gt3 engines to be use. If factories want to play they must choose a IMSA team with a P2 chassis. They shouldn't be allowed to build cars from scratch.



Simple

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Look, we all know what IMSA should be doing, and that's is owning the P2 class that the ACO is discarding.

Discard the chosen 4 rule. Allow gt3 engines to be use. If factories want to play they must choose a IMSA team with a P2 chassis. They shouldn't be allowed to build cars from scratch. Simple

Not practical for the long run.

The whole issue with the four chassis is having a long-term (four years or so) source of chassis. If IMSA went with existing P2s what would happen in two years when accident damage ate up all the spares?

IMSA sort of has to accept the four-manufacturer deal ... There simply isn't a cost-effective way for manufacturers to build a variety of cars just for IMSA, which never has more than a handful of prototypes on the grid.

It isn't cost-effective for manufacturers to design and build so few chassis, which couldn't be used elsewhere---and if they could convince Oak and Oreca to keep building current P2s, before long those would be "old" P2s, several years' old designs, and we'd be right back where we were with DPs, with the series locked into using outmoded technology.

IMSA has to move forward, and it has to source its cars from the existing manufacturers, and they have to make enough money to stay in the game.

[Coach Ep]

Basically IMSA is being hold in a stranglehold (or has chosen to be held in one) by GM, without their backing the series would have been folded already. I don't see the prototype picture since the 'merger' change next season (or the one after for that matter): a couple of Chevy (Cadillac) DP(i)'s mixed in with a couple of Mazolas (Rilazdas) and a few "add-on's" (Shank, ESM, the occasional guest).

The new 'DPi platform' has loads of potential but unfortunately I cannot see a lot of that being fulfilled as the announced restrictions (and to a lesser degree the timing) of the project - in combination with the continued non tire competition and awful race officiating, will hurt not only the top class but the series overall significantly...

[Coach Ep]

Couple of basic question:

- current P2 coupes are not allowed in WEC 2017, all cars must be new?
- an approved chassis constructor can work together with more than one OEM for DPi?

Thanks.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Couple of basic question:

- current P2 coupes are not allowed in WEC 2017, all cars must be new?
- an approved chassis constructor can work together with more than one OEM for DPi?

Thanks.

Yes current P2s will be allowed in WEC in 2017 (only)
- but note they will be 150HP below the new cars.
They will be allowed in ELMS as well for 2017 and 2018

Yes constructors can work with more than one OEM
- there seem to be 5 OEMs doing the rounds at the moment - constructors will have their favoured OEM initially but some must have more than one eventually.

(Dallara = GM, Riley/Multimatic = Mazda, nothing else settled...)

Mariantic

[joeb]

Originally Posted by mariantic

Yes current P2s will be allowed in WEC in 2017 (only)
- but note they will be 150HP below the new cars.
They will be allowed in ELMS as well for 2017 and 2018

Yes constructors can work with more than one OEM
- there seem to be 5 OEMs doing the rounds at the moment - constructors will have their favoured OEM initially but some must have more than one eventually.

(Dallara = GM, Riley/Multimatic = Mazda, nothing else settled...)

Mariantic

Just to add to that, Starworks has purchased a new Riley/Multimatic P2 car, but is still shopping for a manufacturer to partner with. They have the option to run the car both in IMSA and overseas in "plain" Gibson form, but I thought it was interesting they chose the RM chassis over any of the others if they were going to be buying the generic car without hopes for a manufacturer tie-in. So are they trying to get a Mazda deal? or one of the other manufacturers who are shopping around for a chassis partner?

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by joeb

Just to add to that, Starworks has purchased a new Riley/Multimatic P2 car, but is still shopping for a manufacturer to partner with. They have the option to run the car both in IMSA and overseas in "plain" Gibson form, but I thought it was interesting they chose the RM chassis over any of the others if they were going to be buying the generic car without hopes for a manufacturer tie-in. So are they trying to get a Mazda deal? or one of the other manufacturers who are shopping around for a chassis partner?

Remember teams can brand the standard Gibson engine whatever they wish...

This from Beaumesnil in May last year, “Being able to put different names on the engines can help teams to find partners and that’s where we are heading,”

Mariantic

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by mariantic

Yes current P2s will be allowed in WEC in 2017 (only)
- but note they will be 150HP below the new cars.
They will be allowed in ELMS as well for 2017 and 2018

Yes constructors can work with more than one OEM
- there seem to be 5 OEMs doing the rounds at the moment - constructors will have their favoured OEM initially but some must have more than one eventually.

(Dallara = GM, Riley/Multimatic = Mazda, nothing else settled...)

Mariantic

well, considering that the nissan engine has a power of about 490-500hp, very unlikely the gibson engine will have 650hp considering also that will be a N/A unit and if the displacement will be under 5L, to me 550hp will be the best that could be achieved, considering also that the engine will be tuned to have the same (or longer) average lifetime of the current lmp2 engines.
Hope however that gibson motor will be replaced with the HPD 3.5 as soon as possible.

Anyway, 4 are the chassis manufacturers allowed, very unlikely one of them could be able to work with 2 different manufacturers if there will be for real 5 OEM interested (rumor I never trusted by the way).

[TzeiTzei]

I think 600hp has been the target from the start.

[Coach Ep]

Here's a try to break down the possible DPi and prototype entry as things stands now:

DPi
*Cadillac - GM + Dallara
Action Express 2 cars - almost confirmed
WTR 1 car? (leased from AE?) - likely
SoD 1 car?? (leased from AE?) - possible
2-4 cars

*Mazda + Riley Multimatic
Speedscource 2 cars - almost confirmed
SoD 1 car?? - possible
Starworks 1 car?? - possible

Other OEM:
*Honda/Acura/HPD - possible for 2017, more likely for 2018, OAK and Shank seem to be the obvious choices as constructor and entrant but no official clues at this point, 2017 could very well turn out to be a 'bridge' year before an official DPi entry in 2018.
*VAG? (Bentley? Audi?? Lambo???) - possible (50/50 at best). Dallara seems another obvious constructor choice in case things move forward.
*Nissan? - possible (50/50 at best again). Apparently a home for the former P1 engine needs to be found. OAK or Oreca as choice of constructor?
*Alfa Romeo??? - sounds more like a fairytale tbh.
*BMW??? - Rahal has expressed interest in proto participation before but so far nothing more than 'interest shown'. Unlikely.

2017 'general' P2
*Starworks - Riley Multimatic + Gibson - car purchase confirmed, program TBA (might turn into a Mazda DPi)

Current P2 coupes to be grandfathered
*Shank - Ligier/HPD - likely. A continuation of the current program with either the current car or HPD 'one hit wonder' somehow seems more likely than a DPi entry in 2017.
*Dragonspeed - Oreca-Nissan - possible (partial probably)
*ESM - Ligier-Nissan - see Dragonspeed
*Krohn - Ligier-Nissan - possible at best (partial probably)

Others
*D-Wing - not to feature but might just be grandfathered after all???.
*Alegra - not a clue, grandfathering of current DP's might offer best potential.
*Highway to Help - see Alegra.

Anything else will be left side imo.