GTE/GTLM 2016 discussion

[bckf]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is getting a little silly.

Fact is, people are still building brand new cars for it. Current builders are making new cars, and theres a new company coming in. Try and twist it by saying "Oh we almost lost porsche" and "GTLM isn't GTE! Honest!" if you want, but the fact is, there will be a healthy amount of cars in the GTE classes. And if that's what they want, then yes that is healthy for the sport. And if in 5 years it does eventually go away, then we have a very healthy GT3 class that can be put in. But right now, there's no reason to bin the GTE class.

It's as simple as this.
BTW the fact that a new GTE regulation has just been introduced makes me think the manufacturers somehow share the idea that Le Mans should have something a little bit more exclusive than the cars you can see at any of the countless GT3 championships. Perhaps some of them will commit to build more than one generation of GTE cars ,and that would be great.
If that doesn't happen, we can indeed safely assume GT3 isn't going anywhere in a generation's time.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Did you even read the original post that was responded to? Seems not. I quoted it also, so you might do so. New cars and mfgs is what was stated in it. Are not new cars being built for the class by ALL mfgs involved, per se? That is the point.





L.P.

You replied to MoMedic before my post. Keep the snide remarks, theyre not needed. Theres an argument on both sides. Just because theres new GTE cars doesnt mean its the healthiest of classes. "4 new cars", I agree, but really theyre new because the rules changed. GT3 isnt the greatest either, with bop a constant thing, a lack of specific ruleset etc. You ignored the rest of what I said. I think both classes are great but both have their drawbacks.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TF110

You replied to MoMedic before my post. Keep the snide remarks, theyre not needed. Theres an argument on both sides. Just because theres new GTE cars doesnt mean its the healthiest of classes. "4 new cars", I agree, but really theyre new because the rules changed. GT3 isnt the greatest either, with bop a constant thing, a lack of specific ruleset etc. You ignored the rest of what I said. I think both classes are great but both have their drawbacks.

Who was replying to that post, it was not in a vacuum! As to the rest..... you set the tone.







L.P.

[TF110]

Seems conversating with you is a lost cause. I addressed the original comment in my post as well. I dont think either class is a long term solution to gt's being more popular in aco type racing. But its good we have more variety and better looks.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This is getting a little silly.

Fact is, people are still building brand new cars for it. Current builders are making new cars, and theres a new company coming in. Try and twist it by saying "Oh we almost lost porsche" and "GTLM isn't GTE! Honest!" if you want, but the fact is, there will be a healthy amount of cars in the GTE classes. And if that's what they want, then yes that is healthy for the sport. And if in 5 years it does eventually go away, then we have a very healthy GT3 class that can be put in. But right now, there's no reason to bin the GTE class.

I don't think it's silly in the least. We have extrordinarily expensive GTE programs that are being run entirely by manu's(save GTE-AM)... You have desires that have been stated by manu's they'd rather build and sell GT3 cars, than run GTE, but, the current culture doesn't embrace it.

I love GTE, I just think the class structure is foolish for the number of cars we have.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I don't think it's silly in the least. We have extrordinarily expensive GTE programs that are being run entirely by manu's(save GTE-AM)... You have desires that have been stated by manu's they'd rather build and sell GT3 cars, than run GTE, but, the current culture doesn't embrace it.

I love GTE, I just think the class structure is foolish for the number of cars we have.

What utter nonsense! NOBODY is forcing the mfgs to build a GTE, they can build whatever they wish.









L.P.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

What utter nonsense! NOBODY is forcing the mfgs to build a GTE, they can build whatever they wish.

And they do. The point I'm making is that we have five marques in GTE.

Ford, Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche and Aston.

Nobody in GT3 that isn't already represented in GTE wishes to build one. It's too expensive.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

And they do. The point I'm making is that we have five marques in GTE.

Ford, Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche and Aston.

Nobody in GT3 that isn't already represented in GTE wishes to build one. It's too expensive.

SO WHAT! That is what the secondary GT class is for, something/someone running less expensively and not having to compete directly with WERKS programs unless they absolutely want to.




L.P.

[Mt. Lynx]

Honestly, take a look at the history of GT racing. Ever since the ACO "hijacked" BPR in the early/mid nineties, they have had the basic power to set the tone for GT racing around the world. Until 2006, when Ratel decided he would take GT racing back. Like it or not, but GT3 has been a monumental success worldwide.

The problem I see, is that most don't see what it costs to race around the world. And this is where GTE comes in.
Look at how noone is willing to do a GT3 world championship. It's simply too expensive. Unless GTE is scrapped and replaced by GT3 machinery, I doubt we'll ever see a world championship for GT3's.
Luckily, we have the WEC and with it, GTE. The ACO/FIA run GT cars will inevitably change from time to time - sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better. The latest change is IMO for the better. Sadly we seem to be losing one factory Porsche for next season.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

And they do. The point I'm making is that we have five marques in GTE.

Ford, Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche and Aston.

Nobody in GT3 that isn't already represented in GTE wishes to build one. It's too expensive.

Which is as far as I know (haven't looked at the stats, I'll let Chiana do those honors! ) above average looking at the historical number of mnfs that has been represented over the years [going back as far as 1999 when the old GT1/GTPs were expelled and the introduction of what we today know as GTE was done].

I really don't see the issue with the class right now but apparently you and others have different views. That's fine but please don't keep the discussion going just because. Some of your posts (and TF110's as well) are getting tiring some...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

What utter nonsense! NOBODY is forcing the mfgs to build a GTE, they can build whatever they wish.


L.P.

They are forced to build LMGTE if they wish to race at Le Mans.

Your over aggressive remarks are hilarious.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Which is as far as I know (haven't looked at the stats, I'll let Chiana do those honors! ) above average looking at the historical number of mnfs that has been represented over the years [going back as far as 1999 when the old GT1/GTPs were expelled and the introduction of what we today know as GTE was done].

It's sightly above average, we've hovered at about 4 for a number of years, the early 2000's up until now have been fairly stagnant.

It's always been Chevy, Porsche and Ferrari, we've had Aston for a while, and Saleen for a few years..same with Dodge.

I think the reason I'd prefer a change to GT3 cars, and an ousting of GTE/LM is purely due to diversity. You can easily do a Pro/Pro, and Pro/AM class in the same setting. The current GTE class just doesn't have the same luster as it once did, I think it's time to freshen it up a bit.

[Coach Ep]

The 2016 regs are just that - a fresher upper.

And Saleen didn't compete in GTE (GT2) but in the old GT1 - which never saw 5 or more mnfs competing at once I believe. We had Panoz, Spyker and some others (mostly one day flies, Morgan Lambo, Lotus, TVR) in GTE/2 though.

A manufacturer has a couple of options for going to LM, GTE is one of them (among with P1, P2* and engine supplies in both categories) and they clearly choose to do so as nobody is holding a gun to any of the board member's heads...

*more restricted from 2016 but still possible in the US (IMSA)

[Deleted]

2010 alone had 14 LMGT models circulating ACO events
LMGT1: Aston Martin DBR9, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R GT1, Ford GT1, Lamborghini Murcielago R-SV, Saleen S7-R
LMGT2: Aston Martin Vantage GT2, BMW M3 GTR GT2, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R GT2, Doran Ford GT-R Mk. VII, Ferrari F430 GT2, Jaguar XKR GT2, Lamborghini Gallardo LP560 GT2, Porsche 997 GT3 RSR, Spyker C8 Laviolette GT2-R

+ Further theoretical eglibility for Nissan GT-R GT1, and some other debunked GT1s. Prob also the Riley GT2 Corvette had GM not *****ed them out previous fall- Some old Porkie iterations likely too
---

In 2011 LMGT had 9-11 (depending on way of counting) models circulating tracks physically
LMGTE: Aston Martin Vantage GT2, BMW M3 GTR GT2, Chevrolet Corvette C6.R GT2, Doran Ford GT-R Mk. VII, Ferrari F430 GT2, Ferrari 458 GTE Italia, Jaguar XKR GT2, Lamborghini Gallardo LP560 GT2, Lotus Evora GTE, Porsche 997 GT3 RSR (& Panoz Abruzzi if counted for 11)

+ Further theoretical eglibility for grandfathered GT1s in GTE-AM, probably also the ditched Spyker GT2

---

I'm too tired to take a look at rest of the years as totalling but here is LM alone since turn of the decade:
2000 - 3x in two classes
2001 - 5x in two classes
2002 - 7x in two classes
2003 - 8x in two classes
2004 - 5x in two classes
2005 - 7x in two classes
2006 - 8x in two classes
2007 - 8x in two classes
2008 - 7x in two classes
2009 - 6x in two classes
2010 - 10x in two classes
2011 - 7x in one class separated for two subs
2012 - 4x in one class separated for two subs
2013 - 5x in one class separated for two subs
2014 - 4x in one class separated for two subs
2015 - 5x in one class separated for two subs

[Coach Ep]

So basically it has been stable for the last 5 years. And with such a big manufacturer + such a big program as Ford coming in, there's not a lot to worry about as things stand now. And if the rumors are correct Porsche is to show up in the near future with a revolutionary (for their doing) mid engined car (2017?).

Yes, long term stability should get a lot of thought, along with cost reduction and GT3 conversion. Is anyone thinking the ACO (& IMSA) are not doing that yet?

[Deleted]

I too remember the days when I defended GT2 to the absolute core while loathing and ridiculing GT3.

Then ACO basically turned it into GT3 clone with all the constant bop crap and pro-am nonsense. It's actually even worse now than GT3 since it has super secret waivers and broken rulebook too, and way less models (& series) eglibility. GT3 isn't lying for the lottery that it is. So while I still despise GT3 I rather have just that than both, at least for as long as we would get proper GT structure back

Anyway the Fords could always disappear as quickly as the Vipers so don't hang too tightly to them

[Coach Ep]

O, I get that although the investment that Ford is making must be substantially bigger than Dodge/Fiat's.

Anyway, with the way both GTE and GT3 are organized it's only a matter of time before they naturally merge together into one big GT platform. The discussed 'conversion' might have failed but probably because the time wasn't right (yet). In due time even the ACO will acknowledge that and adjust their course.

Around 2022 you'll see GT3 (or whatever they'll be called then) on the grid at Le Mans!

[seanyb505]

With the increase in GTE performance, I think there's enough separation in performance to go back an upper and lower GT class. i.e. No more pro-am in high level series. Manufacturers can race and develop in GTE/LM/2 and privateers can use the GT3 cars, which are cheaper to run anyway.

[Coach Ep]

I agree with one single GTE class, Braveheart privateers more than welcome! Not for the faint-of-heart however. Those *****ing and moaning about it we can do without anyway imo. Dempsey for example doesn't need to race a GTE, he just wants to compete at Le Mans (and to a lesser extent the world championship), a GT3 would be fine with him.

When the ACO starts letting GT3 cars in, we'll see a tsunami of entry request, I'll bet you!

[Speed-King]

Around 2022 you'll see GT3 (or whatever they'll be called then) on the grid at Le Mans!

I would bet good money against there being a GT3 class come 2022...

Okay, some of the cars will still be around and some people will still race them, but I do think very much that the current new generation of cars are what the MC12 and DBR9 were to GT1.

[Deleted]

Why MC12 and DBR9 specifically?

Anyway maybe LMP3 becomes such a hit that ACO will be 'forced' to open up LM to them, leading up to like only 10-15 LMGT grid spots ie only factories and perhaps some French football stars team

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Why MC12 and DBR9 specifically?

Last generation of the original (well not "original" original, but you know what I mean) GT1s...

I have this weird little theory how even successful regulations usually survive three generations of cars. Doesn't apply to series that fail way early, but you can make a case for it e.g. in super touring or GTS/GT1: First generation was the 993 GT2 and the Viper, second generation the 550 Ferraris and their contemporaries, third generation the MC12, DBR9 and C6.R.

And for GT3: First we had the original set of cars (997 Cup, etc.), second generation started in 2009 with the R8 and then the other German cars, and now Gen.2 is being phased out for new, more expensive and more advanced cars. Those cars will be around for a bit, and people will keep on building GT3s (and the FIA will keep homologating them) but I think this will be the last set of cars that really reaches relatively high sales figures (though they will most probably not top the second generation cars in that regard either.)

[Deleted]

Oh alright just thought you referred to those two models specificly

Interesting theory you have there, and something I can see agreeing myself with

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Oh alright just thought you referred to those two models specificly

Interesting theory you have there, and something I can see agreeing myself with

It's pretty much spot on actually... I've never thought of it like that.

[Mt. Lynx]

Good theory, but I think you have to ad one generation - the one that kills it. Go back to the 90's, and we get 1st gen BPR, 2nd gen starts wth the McLaren F1 in 95', then 3rd gen with the LT's, and then 4th wich ends this GT1 run - TS020, 911 GT1 98, CLK-LM and R390 LT.
Next step is as Speed-King says, but ends with a 4th gen in the slowed down GT1 cars by SRO - Nissan GTR, Ford GT, Lamborghini Mucielago LP670-2 RSVGT1 - wich just kills off GT1.

We are then entering gen 3 in both GT3 and GTE. Wich historically is the most rememberable one.