[Rules] The FIA - what's occurring there?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Greem

The single biggest issue for me is that if Crashgate had been handled differently during the 2008 season (or up to the 2008 FIA Gala night) then the resulting races would have been very different affairs. There is no certainty that the same results would have occurred, and no certainty that either Hamilton nor Massa would win the WDC, ergo the result should stand.

I think this is a key fact. I think this should be the detail that stop this insanity.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Not sure they can grasp this.

They are ignoring it. Not to mention that a number of the potential ways to adjust the outcome from the Singapore race don't result in Massa having enough points to win the WDC.

From the Motorsports article..

Furthermore, even if the FIA had gone as far as totally excluding Renault from the Singapore GP and stripping Fernando Alonso of his win, that would still not help Massa's cause as it would simply deliver more points to eventual champion Lewis Hamilton.

I think to make this work in Massa's favor they would have to erase ALL points awarded at Singapore from the championship?

Richard

[BTCC frog]

I believe Felipe Massa's case to be insane for a number of reasons, but most notably the idea that Renault cheating means the entire Singapore Grand Prix should be declared null and void, or taken to the lap before Nelson Piquet Jr crashed. Since motor racing began, teams have been looking at any minute way possible to get around the rule book (wasn't Count de Dion disqualified for having an illegal car in the Paris-Rouen trial of 1894, albeit probably not deliberately), and there is absolutely no precedent whatsoever, certainly not in Formula 1, for either of those things happening. It is particularly concerning how much history would need to change if Massa were to get his way as there are so many far more obvious examples of people being robbed of championships than 2008 (Damon Hill in 1994 and Lewis Hamilton in 2021 spring to mind). For fun, I wrote this article about how history needs to be turned on its head if the rule was applied that if one team cheats, an entire race is annulled, as Massa and Ecclestone seem to think is the case:
https://f1frogblog.wordpress.com/202...history-of-f1/

I am sure he will get nothing out of the case, and it will be a travesty if he does. As stated earlier, it is a particular shame considering Massa has always been known for losing so graciously, and now he goes and does this. It is worth noting that Crashgate actually didn't really have any effect on his Singapore Grand Prix being ruined anyway so the whole 'rightful champion of 2008' and 'robbed' idea is quite obnoxious and untrue.

[Adam43]

Unfortunately this lack of sanity had lead to a lack of dignity.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I believe Felipe Massa's case to be insane for a number of reasons, but most notably the idea that Renault cheating means the entire Singapore Grand Prix should be declared null and void, or taken to the lap before Nelson Piquet Jr crashed. Since motor racing began, teams have been looking at any minute way possible to get around the rule book (wasn't Count de Dion disqualified for having an illegal car in the Paris-Rouen trial of 1894, albeit probably not deliberately), and there is absolutely no precedent whatsoever, certainly not in Formula 1, for either of those things happening. It is particularly concerning how much history would need to change if Massa were to get his way as there are so many far more obvious examples of people being robbed of championships than 2008 (Damon Hill in 1994 and Lewis Hamilton in 2021 spring to mind). For fun, I wrote this article about how history needs to be turned on its head if the rule was applied that if one team cheats, an entire race is annulled, as Massa and Ecclestone seem to think is the case:
https://f1frogblog.wordpress.com/202...history-of-f1/

I am sure he will get nothing out of the case, and it will be a travesty if he does. As stated earlier, it is a particular shame considering Massa has always been known for losing so graciously, and now he goes and does this. It is worth noting that Crashgate actually didn't really have any effect on his Singapore Grand Prix being ruined anyway so the whole 'rightful champion of 2008' and 'robbed' idea is quite obnoxious and untrue.

A very interesting blog. That must have taken a lot of research.

I really can't believe Massa will achieve anything by this except to devalue himself and his legacy. In 20 years time people won't think of him as the person who almost won a world championship. He'll be remembered as the idiot who tried to overturn a 15 year-old result for his own personal gain.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

A very interesting blog. That must have taken a lot of research.

I really can't believe Massa will achieve anything by this except to devalue himself and his legacy. In 20 years time people won't think of him as the person who almost won a world championship. He'll be remembered as the idiot who tried to overturn a 15 year-old result for his own personal gain.

Exactly. Those advising Felipe and no doubt extracting large sums from his bank account for doing so should be ashamed of themselves.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

He'll be remembered as the idiot who tried to overturn a 15 year-old result for his own personal gain.

I fear you're right here. At least partially…

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I believe Felipe Massa's case to be insane for a number of reasons, but most notably the idea that Renault cheating means the entire Singapore Grand Prix should be declared null and void, or taken to the lap before Nelson Piquet Jr crashed. Since motor racing began, teams have been looking at any minute way possible to get around the rule book (wasn't Count de Dion disqualified for having an illegal car in the Paris-Rouen trial of 1894, albeit probably not deliberately), and there is absolutely no precedent whatsoever, certainly not in Formula 1, for either of those things happening. It is particularly concerning how much history would need to change if Massa were to get his way as there are so many far more obvious examples of people being robbed of championships than 2008 (Damon Hill in 1994 and Lewis Hamilton in 2021 spring to mind). For fun, I wrote this article about how history needs to be turned on its head if the rule was applied that if one team cheats, an entire race is annulled, as Massa and Ecclestone seem to think is the case:
https://f1frogblog.wordpress.com/202...history-of-f1/

So it is time to give Michael Schumacher, the rightful champion of 1997, his crown back.

[Greem]

I've just realised something - Massa's crash at the Hungaroring in 2009 fractured his skull and caused at the very least some serious bruising to his left frontal lobe.

Damage to the frontal lobes via significant head injuries can cause changes in personality and rationality.

I'm just thinking out loud here, really. Maybe I shouldn't.

[Gerard C]

No worry, we will just keep it between us.

[Akrapovic]

My recollection of that race must be a bit off, judging by Massas stance.

Massa was leading Lewis. Alonso and a few others pitted. Piquet stuck it in the wall. Everyone pits. Ferrari fluffed the pit stop and it sent him to the back of the field.

Had Ferrari not fluffed the pit stop, he'd have exited the pits ahead of Lewis, and based on the on track performance until that point, would've outscored him.

This seems like a Ferrari issue more than anything else.

[Adam43]

He should sue Ferrari.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Maybe Ferrari should sue him, as he drove off with the fuel hose nozzle still attached to the car, knocking over one of the pit crew?


https://youtu.be/FJdl9ly-69w?si=9sMe_SMP4nYxhduy

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe Ferrari should sue him, as he drove off with the fuel hose nozzle still attached to the car, knocking over one of the pit crew?


https://youtu.be/FJdl9ly-69w?si=9sMe_SMP4nYxhduy

The mechanic controlling the light changed it to green.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The mechanic controlling the light changed it to green.

Ok, then a can sue Ferrari.

[Richard C]

Interestingly (and not unexpectedly) I think I read that Ferrari is not cooperating with him on this train-wreck.

Richard

[S griffin]

I think Ferrari are satisfied as they got the constructors title that year despite everything

[Adam43]

Any satisfaction is unlikely to be the reason why they are steering clear of this.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

So it is time to give Michael Schumacher, the rightful champion of 1997, his crown back.

Under Felipe Massa's rules, that is genuinely what needs to happen.

If Massa gets the 2008 championship, it will be the greatest travesty in motorsport history.

And if, by some miracle, Felipe Massa wins, then that won't even be the end of it. Plenty of other controversies will be overturned as well, Abu Dhabi 2021 at least. Even if that was a genuine example of Hamilton being robbed, surely nobody wants it changed two years later. I am now content with it being consigned to the history books as a farcical ending to a championship, and it wouldn't be right for it to be changed now. And in Singapore, Felipe Massa wasn't even robbed anyway.

[S griffin]

I agree this whole chapter needs to be closed. Maybe it wasn’t the most satisfactory incident in F1 history, but there are plenty of other examples in F1 where you could say the same thing and arguably what happened in AD 2021 was worse. And Barrichello arguably has a stronger claim to get given the 2002 Austrian GP win. Massa maybe did deserve to be champion in 2008, but it would be a farce if he got it this way, I agree

[Richard C]

Article could just as easily be titled "Massa's legal team smokes massive amount of Crack"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...case/10518982/

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Article could just as easily be titled "Massa's legal team smokes massive amount of Crack"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...case/10518982/

Richard

That is completely insane. They are completely off their heads....

[BTCC frog]

Something ironic that I have noticed is if Lewis Hamilton had not overtaken Timo Glock in Brazil, Massa would have been declared champion (equal points but on countback). But then Hamilton could easily be presenting the exact same legal case right now, but requesting that Alonso be removed from the final results rather than the race be annulled. I think he would have more of a case than Massa does. But I still wouldn't want the result changed now. The history of Formula 1 is filled with interesting controversies and they are just that, history. Publicly pointing out where rules weren't followed and people are robbed is fine, but officially, history should be left as it is. Once a year has passed, I think it should no longer be possible to overturn a result, and I think that actually is the case.

[Sodemo]

I wonder if Lewis wishes Mercedes had pursued the case for the 2021 championship? My guess is no, as its not a classy way to win a world title but I think they had a much better case than Massa does.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

For fun, I wrote this article about how history needs to be turned on its head if the rule was applied that if one team cheats, an entire race is annulled, as Massa and Ecclestone seem to think is the case

I just want to say nicely done. It would open a huge can of worms to try to "fix" things. Especially if Massa's suggested "fix" is one of many potential and the one that serves him the most.

Another comment on the recent public statements about trying to garner Hamilton's support. It is a blatant attempt to "guilt" him into supporting Massa. It is so obvious, childlike and ultimately sad as to what they are trying to do.

I was initially supportive if the objective was potential improved governance, but not a change in championship or money. But when reading this here and in other F1 social platforms, I really don't see anyone who supports what Massa's legal team is trying to do. Do people have sympathy for him? Yes. Do they support this madness as it is playing out? I would think overwhelmingly the answer is no.

For me the question is how long will this slow motion train-wreck play out before it grinds to a halt, becomes a footnote in history and Massa is relegated to laughing stock status because of it.

Richard

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I wonder if Lewis wishes Mercedes had pursued the case for the 2021 championship? My guess is no, as its not a classy way to win a world title but I think they had a much better case than Massa does.

Not quite Mercedes is watching with interest.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/me...ions/10520589/