Formula Atlantic etc (was 'Chevron B29s')

[allenbrown]

FANTASTIC!!!

Anything delivered to James Truman or Red Roof Inns in early 1980? Maybe one to Richard Guider late 1979 or early 1980? Any other oddly late RT1s to the US?

Must resist asking you about all the RT2s. At least until I get home!

Many thanks

Allen

[Adam Ferrington]

Allen,

See my reply on the Cicale thread.
Other than the 2 cars to Cicale, everything for US/Canada went to Brian Robertson, and teams/drivers are only mentioned in about 1/3 of cases.
I've just noticed, however, that there WAS a late RT1 (156)sent to Robertson in kit form, but it looks like it's listed as an F. Atlantic.

ADAM

[Chris Townsend]

Dan

Brain fade in confusing Clarkson with John Calvert [it was he who owned 722-29 [from new] and 732-1. But Clarkson still no connection to the Mike Sullivan car's history.

Jones in a 74B in 1974 could be correct since he took over the Harry Stiller racing car later in the season.

Adam

Welcome. Perhaps we could post the RT1 sales records on a new thread?
I have a copy of the Autosport list [1-70] with some histories worked out for 1975-80. The problem is all the agency sales via McCarthy and Robertson, but doubtless we could solve some of those.

Chris

[Adam Ferrington]

Chris,

Yes, I'll start an RT1 thread listing what I have.

I'll use the Autosport list up to c/no 70, then what I have (very few) for 71 to 93, then the Ralt list from c/no 94.

BTW the last RT1 was -167 to Robertson so we're looking at a list of 160 or so.

[allenbrown]

Anyone know the number of the ex-Roos Chevron B27 being advertised on eBay?

[allenbrown]

There may be no end to the stuff being liberated from Adam's attic!

He's now been kind enough to send me some UK Formula Atlantic results sheets from 1973 and 1975 and US Formula B results from 1971 and 1972. (Chris, I'll add the results sheets to the programs in your package).

The 1971 Formula FB results are interesting as they show Bill Gubelmann in a March 712M, not the 71BM used by Lazier, Dykes, Mizejewski, Grimaldi and Lang. The listings we have on this thread for the 712M don't mention Gubelmann.

Anyone have any ideas?

Allen

[allenbrown]

1971 US FB series

                                              R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 Total
Lader, Allan       Brabham BT29, Brabham BT35 20 20    15 10 20 85 
Hawthorne, Bert    Tui                              20 20 20    60 
Craw, Nick         Brabham BT35               10 6  8     6  15 45 
Van Buren, Freddy  Chevron B18                   10 15    15    40 
Gubelmann, Bill    March 71BM, March 712M     8  12       8     28 
Junco, Rudolfo     Brabham BT29               12    12          24 
Hiss, Mike         Lola T240                  15 8              23 
Sarich, Jim        Lola T240                           10 4  6  20 
Lazier, Bob        March 71BM                       6     12    18 
Perez Gama, Raul   Brabham BT29, Brabham BT35       4  8  1  2  15 
Brenner, Doug      Brabham BT29                  15             15 
Sarich, Chuck      Lola T240                           12       12 
Stevenson, WP Fred Lotus 69                                  12 12 
Hall, Mike         Brabham BT35                              10 10 
Dykes, Ron         March 71BM                       10          10 
Hebert, Robert     Lotus 69B                                 8  8  
Kornell, Thomas    Brabham BT29                  1  1  2     3  7  
Householder, Ron   Brabham BT29                        6        6  
Moran, Rocky       Lola T240                     3        3     6  
Couture, Jacques   Lotus 69B                  6                 6  
Dietrich, Chuck    Brabham BT29                              4  4  
Nye, Peter         Brabham BT29                        4        4  
Grob, Jim          Chevron B15                   4              4  
Walther, Skip      Lola T240                  2           2     4  
Mizejewski, Max    March 71BM                 4                 4  
Adams, Charlie     Brabham BT21C                       3        3  
Solio, Carlos      Brabham BT29                     3           3  
Wright, Larry      Brabham BT29               3                 3  
Reddy, Tom         Brabham BT29                  2              2  
Demovsky, Syd      Lola T240                        2           2  
McCaig, Maurice    Brabham BT35                              1  1  
Flickinger, Warren Chevron                             1        1  
Monson, William    Lotus 69B                  1                 1  

Allen

[allenbrown]

And the full list of runners are riders:

Brabham BT21 - Rocky Moran, Pierre Phillips
Brabham BT21C - Charlie Adams, Gary Gove, Bill Middleton
Brabham BT29 - John Angus, Doug Brenner, Dan Davis, Chuck Dietrich, Dick Doherty, Mike Eyerly, Barry Fox, Philip Geraldi, Randy Hancock, Ron Householder, Norman Johnson, Rudolfo Junco, Thomas Kornell, Allan Lader, Steve Louden, Peter Nye, Raul Perez Gama, Mike Rand, Tom Reddy, Carlos Solio, Bob Wenz, Larry Wright, Jiro Yoneyama
Brabham BT35 - Nick Craw, James Gutfreund, Mike Hall, Steve Harris, Allan Lader, Maurice McCaig, Raul Perez Gama, Russ Tyndall
Brand X Huffaker - Jon Woodner
Chevron - Warren Flickinger
Chevron B14 - Thomas Jones
Chevron B15 - Jim Grob
Chevron B15/B17 - Peter Darr
Chevron B17B - Tom Outcault
Chevron B18 - Freddy Van Buren, Carl Liebich
Cicada - Gus Hutchison
Cicada Mk I -Dan Murphy
Excar - Jon Woodner
LeGrand Mk 12 - Jim King
LeGrand Mk 14 - Gene Forsthofel
Lola T240 - Syd Demovsky, Mike Hiss, Howard Johnson, Rocky Moran, Chuck Sarich, Jim Sarich, Skip Walther, Charles Wanamaker
Lola T240D - Skip Walther
Lonizer - Gene Forsthofel
Lotus 69 - WP Fred Stevenson
Lotus 69B - Jacques Couture, Robert Hebert, Dave McConnell, William Monson
March 705 - Mike Hayman
March 712M - Bill Gubelmann
March 71BM - Ron Dykes, Joe Grimaldi, Bill Gubelmann, Dale Lang, Bob Lazier, Max Mizejewski
Palliser - Jerardo Martinez
Tecno - Skeeter McKitterick, Gus Hutchison
Tui - Bert Hawthorne

Most of the BT35s arrived very late in the season. The quantity of Lola T240s was a surprise to me.

Allen

PS Four posts in a row - time to do something else!

[Chris Townsend]

Blimey Allen!

What else has Adam got up there? A missing ex Val Musetti March 742 tub?

They built quite a few T240s at Lola though they disappeared off the scene quite fast.

Regarding the Gubelmann 712M. What date does it appear?
I know that Adam's build record for the model only goes to 20 and we can account for all of those in Europe in 1971. However, F1R attribute chassis 25 to Williams quite late on in season. I'd always taken this to be a dodgy number, especially as the car only appears when another Williams chassis [4] is missing.
However, if the run really did go to 25 what were 21, 22, 23, 24?
Would this be a run built for N.America as the 712BM [of which there were probably only 2 or 3 since that's all that appear together] and a 712M for Gubelmann?

Chris

[David McKinney]

I have 712M-21 being run by Ala d'Oro for Tino Brambilla, then appearing with Sten Gunnarson, and from Brands Hatch with James Hunt
Info gleaned at the time, no doubt from Autosport and/or Motoring News
No higher numbers though (except than John Harper was running a '24' about ten years ago)

[allenbrown]

Chris

I also have the 71BM invoice schedule from March records. Not Adam this time - a certain furry animal from the Gloucestershire area. Gubelmann definitely had a 71BM early in the season but then the SCCA results start calling it a 712M instead. I'll check when it changes.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

David

21 is right. Adam's record does in fact include that car, which was March's rent-a-drive chassis.

It's interesting that finally we are starting to unearth all these March sales records. My biggest mystery is probably now GRD. Anyone know anything about those!

Chris

[allenbrown]

Ted's records show 14 71BMs, all the way up to 71BM-17 but omitting 13 and, oddly, 6 and 7.

Most went to dealers: 1, 5, 8 and 10 to Gordon Dewar in Canada and 2, 3, 4, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15 and 16 to Grimaldi in the US. 71BM/17 went to Paul Deetens in Belgium but with a note that it was sent to Montreal for show.

The only entries which show eventual owners were 71BM-2 to Bill Gubelmann, 71BM-3 to Max Mizejewski and 71BM-12 to Matt Spitzley. However, I have some colours and some build dates if anyone can unearth a 1971 US FB entry list that identifies car colours.

Allen

[Jeremy Jackson]

More recently (early to mid 1990s) 71BM-12, -15 & -17 were raced in Historic events, I noted:

71BM-12: Hall & Fowler in 1996
71BM-15: Richard & Chris Smith in 1993
71BM-17: Paul Gardner in 1990, Steve Hartley 1991-93

[Chris Townsend]

14 71BMs?!!*!*

Does this mean that virtually all the 712Ms that appear in the USA and Canada after 71 are likely to be BMs? And where do they all race? Even with Gubelmann we only have 7 running in the pro series in 1971, of whom none are Canadian. [So do the four Dewar cars run in Canadian series with F5000?] Are the other 3 just running SCCA regionals?

Chris

[allenbrown]

A quick scan of autocourse.ca suggests 3 71BMs running in the pro Canadian series and my post above shows 6 in the US series. That compares with 4 and 9 cars going to that country's dealer.

I'd be surprised if anyone was keeping a spare car in those days so I'd have to conclude that the other four cars only ran in regional races in Canada or in SCCA Nationals in the US. I can check the SCCA points tables to find out if anyone scored points in a March.

Note that the Canadian series was in its first year as FB only - the FA cars had been dropped after 1970. The March drivers in 1971 were Ian Coristine (71BM), Derek Johnson ("March") and Randy Fraser ("March") - all from Monteal.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Try Peter Denty for the GRD Records.

[allenbrown]

Thanks for the tip, Ted

[allenbrown]

I went March hunting in the 1971 SCCA Nationals.

To recap, all we found in the Pro series were:

March 71BM - Ron Dykes, Joe Grimaldi, Bill Gubelmann, Dale Lang, Bob Lazier, Max Mizejewski
March 705 - Mike Hayman

SCCA Nationals 1970 FB class

NorthEast Div
Charlie Gibson, March 705, New York, 4pts

South East Div
(results missing)

Central Div
No Marchs

North Pacific Div
No Marchs

Midwest Div
No Marchs

South Pacific Div (12 Oct 1970)
No Marchs

South West Div
(results missing)

SCCA Nationals 1971 FB class

NorthEast Div
John Girdler, March, New York, 10pts
Steve Mandy, March, New England, 4pts
Seb Barone, March, New England, 4pts
Joe Grimaldi, March, No NJ, 2pts
[in FC: Fred Ashplant, March, No NJ, 30pts)

South East Div (10 Oct 1971)
Steve Mandy [again], March Ford, Florida, 8pts

Central Div
Geoffrey Freeman, March, Western Ohio, 1pt
Dale Lang, March, Land O'Lakes, 1pt

Midwest Div
Bob Lazier, March, C, 33pts
Bob Criss, March, C, 4pts

North Pacific Div
No Marchs

South Pacific Div
(results missing)

South West Div
(results missing)

So the new names are John Girdler, Steve Mandy, Seb Barone, Fred Ashplant, Geoffrey Freeman and Bob Criss. One or two of those could be hire deals, shared cars or 705s but bear in mind FB grids were typically quite large so there could have been more 71BMs that never scored points. Either way, this must account for the three missing US cars.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Here's another couple. Michael Rand, who qualified third in the NE Div in his Brabham BT29 (ch no 36), was a DNS at the ARRC in a 71BM. Also, Chuck Dietrich, who won Central Div in a Brabham, was a DNF at the ARRC in a 71BM.

Allen

[allenbrown]

And Fred Ashplant's "March 70B" was at the 71 ARRC too - so we can take him off the 71BM possibles list.

[allenbrown]

OK, at the risk of talking to myself here, I decided to try to make sense of the March 705. My furry friend (who I'm offering the chance of anonymity should he choose it), picked out the following from his copy of the 1970 March build book:

705/1 - BOAT (presumably the Racing Car show on the boat)
705/2 - missing
705/3 - Bill Gubelmann/Sprindell Racing 15 Jun 1970
705/4 - Bill Gubelmann/Sprindell Racing 15 Jun 1970
705/5 - Bill Gubelmann/Sprindell Racing 15 Jun 1970

The March book says 5 were built but there was no sign of 705/2 in the records. I wonder if I could ask my good friend to double-check that and PM me if he finds anything?

The 705s to turn up in the US in 1970 were:

Charles Gibson (Poughkeepsie, NY) (first seen Road America 18 Jul 1970; last seen Road America 29 Aug 1970; at least one race in SCCA Nationals; appears in 1973 Nationals table in "March" but that's likely to be a later car)
Mike Hayman (Washington, DC) (first seen Road America 18 Jul 1970; last seen Road America 29 Aug 1971)
Bill Gubelmann (Oyster Bay, NY) (first seen St Jovite 1 Aug 1970; last seen Sebring 25 Oct 1970)
Bill Prout (only known outing in 1970 was at Lime Rock 7 Sep 1970; appears in 1973 Nationals table in "March" and this page implies it was the same car)

In 1971, Hayman and Prout would appear to have retained their cars and Ashcroft appears in FC in another. The fourth has gone to ground.

I'm going to email Bill Prout to see what he remembers of his car. It is possible that his car was the one used earlier by Gibson but that seems a push. It seems more likely it was a fourth 705 which implies the racing car show car came to the US too.

Chris - any sign of a 705 in UK racing?

Allen

[mickj]

Allen
No you not talking to yourself, this is most interesting.
Mick

[Bryan Miller]

Allen and anybody else,

EXACTLY , how is the chassis plate stamped on the 71 B cars , I suspect it will be 71B-XX M , can anybody confirm as this may well be the key to more than a few mysteries.

To the best of my knowledge , but stand corrected , the last cars that should have an '' M '' in the chassis number would be 1971 poss. some 1972 .

The reason being in the first place March were building spaceframe cars for F.Ford and F3 which were designated on the chassis plate as '' S '' and then the monocoque cars had '' M '' in the chassis plate , these cars being the F2 cars.

Or does anybody have evidence of post 1971/2 cars with M in the plate .?

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

As described to me from the March records, they were 71BM-XX. Sorry, no idea what the plate says.

Glad to discover I'm not talking to myself!

Allen