Grp C/Grp A/V8SC 'Where are they now?' continued...

[pete55]

That was Phil O'Donnell wasn't it. I think it was sponsored by Quick Fit. One of the nicest looking cars of it's day in my opinion.

[TSR]

As I have just purchased a 1.18 scale model of Dick Johnson XB Bathurst Falcon, I was wondering were both that car and the Alan Moffat XC Cobras are today. Does anybody know.
Cheers

[racer69]

There's a Bryan Byrt/Johnson Hardtop Falcon getting around Group C at moment (possibly in Queensland), not sure of it's history though.

The Moffat XC's, #1 from '77 became the #25 Federation Insurance car in 1979. After that the internals of the car were put into the yellow XD for a few demonstration laps at Bathurst in 1980

The Shell and wheels are now in the Bathurst Museum on display, with new bits added to complete the car. This opens up another question, would we still call this the original car?

The #2 Bond/Hamilton car in was bought at Auction last year by the Bowden's.

[Group'C']

A race cars internals can be changed a fair bit in just a couple of race meetings .

The car as it is a chassis and maybe has a Number, this can be called THE CAR

[GTRMagic]

Speaking of nice cars... one I would love to have that elusive lotto win to buy is Mr Seton's Peter Jackson Sierra....

Its for sale Here for STG70,000 (or near enough to A$200k...)

I can always remember this car, and its twin... at an old Amaroo meeting, the place was rainy and windswept, yet this car was immaculate... good enough to eat your lunch off...

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by racer69

There's a Bryan Byrt/Johnson Hardtop Falcon getting around Group C at moment (possibly in Queensland), not sure of it's history though.

The Moffat XC's, #1 from '77 became the #25 Federation Insurance car in 1979. After that the internals of the car were put into the yellow XD for a few demonstration laps at Bathurst in 1980

The Shell and wheels are now in the Bathurst Museum on display, with new bits added to complete the car. This opens up another question, would we still call this the original car?

The #2 Bond/Hamilton car in was bought at Auction last year by the Bowden's.

\

I saw the Moffat XD in the window of Stuckey Tyres in Melbourne - is it the car or a replica?

Re the #2 Moffat Falcon - is this the one sold at auction for $77,500 versus the asking prices being kicked about for ex Jansen Commodore of $250k

[racer69]

Not sure on the Moffat XD, i recall an issue of AMC a while back with an American who had made a replica of the Federation XD, presumebly it's in America now though. From memory in the previous 'Where are these cars now' thread the Moffat XD came up.

Speaking of Captain NGK Jansen, whatever happened to his bus?

[pete60]

Pretty sure the Bowdens own the Moffat XD as well.....

[F|sh]

bowden collection

a grown mans toy shop

[prn 31]

At the Historic Touring Car Festival at Oran Park yesterday there was a white Group C XE Falcon driven by Phil Kirkham.

I didn't get to see this vehicle close up or talk to anyone involved with it. But the on-course commentator said this was built up (and presumably logged) for Allan Moffat before he went riceburning with Mazda RX7s. They went on to say that Moffat's mechanic (can't recall the name) has owned the car ever since and I think this weekend was its first race meeting. It was pretty quick, but lost a wheel in a latter race and suffered minor damage.

My question is, fellow students, is this correct?

Btw the Historic Touring Car Festival was well supported by a sizable crowd and a few car club displays. However the fields for all touring car categories (N,C and A) were poor - in the single figures. It is a great concept, with real spectator appeal, but at a time where there are already a lot of (at least for Group N) other race meetings scheduled around the same time.

[B!tchie Renault]

The mechanic's name would be Mick Webb?? would it?

[pete55]

Originally Posted by prn 31

At the Historic Touring Car Festival at Oran Park yesterday there was a white Group C XE Falcon driven by Phil Kirkham.

I didn't get to see this vehicle close up or talk to anyone involved with it. But the on-course commentator said this was built up (and presumably logged) for Allan Moffat before he went riceburning with Mazda RX7s. They went on to say that Moffat's mechanic (can't recall the name) has owned the car ever since and I think this weekend was its first race meeting. It was pretty quick, but lost a wheel in a latter race and suffered minor damage.

My question is, fellow students, is this correct?

Btw the Historic Touring Car Festival was well supported by a sizable crowd and a few car club displays. However the fields for all touring car categories (N,C and A) were poor - in the single figures. It is a great concept, with real spectator appeal, but at a time where there are already a lot of (at least for Group N) other race meetings scheduled around the same time.

My memory has gone but i think it was either Ray Cutchie or Roger Cartwright that was with Moffat in those days. Roger Cartwright is the father of Jamie Cartwright. ( i think his name is Roger)

[miata]

The group C Falcon in question was originally Moffat's spare car but he never raced it. Nick Karadimas, who at the time worked for Mofat, brought the car and ran it as a privateer at a handful of events. Nick still owns the car and is the original log booked owner of the vehicle. The team is looking forward to Eastern Creek.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by racer69

The Moffat XC's, #1 from '77 became the #25 Federation Insurance car in 1979. After that the internals of the car were put into the yellow XD for a few demonstration laps at Bathurst in 1980

The Shell and wheels are now in the Bathurst Museum on display, with new bits added to complete the car. This opens up another question, would we still call this the original car?

The #2 Bond/Hamilton car in was bought at Auction last year by the Bowden's.

Im pretty sure there were 3 XCs run by the MFDT between 1976 and 80.

There was the 76 "Phoenix" XB (#9) which was built mid 76 when his red/gold XB- which was originally the Brut33 B52- was destroyed in a fire. This car became Bonds (#2) in 1977. There was a new XB built for Moffat at the start of 77 (#1). These cars had XC cosmetics for sandown and bathurst 1977 (1-2) and the first half of 1978. Note they Did not change the rear wing/wheelarch panels and repeater lights when they did the update to XC trim.

Late 78 two MoFoCo Cobras failed to finish Bathurst 78 and had a miserable 1979. In late 79 Bond goes his own eay and Moff turns up in the federation (#25), which seems to be Cobra #1 repainted.

Things get a bit murkey however, as pics clearly show that the XBs and 77 XCs had vertical repeater lights in the rear wheel arch (as did all XBs). However on his "Cobras", one had vertical "XB" repeater lights (#2) and one had horizontal lights (#1) (XCs had horizontal repeater lights). The Fed car had a Horizontal repeater. So perhaps cobra#1 which became Fed #2 was a new car, and #2 was one of the 77 XB/Cs. The 77 1-2 Bathurst cars definitely raced with XB repeaters and XC nose and dash.

A number of years ago a pic turned up of the Fed car decaying in wreckers yard in suburban melbourne (i might have that pic somewhere), and someone else claimed they saw it crushed and barely recognisable at the bottom of a scrap heap. I believe Moffat even said one car was crushed.

The car at the Bathurst museum has a horizontal repeater, no car ever raced with a horizontal repeater in that paint job. (unless it was very late78 just before they became cobras - pics anyone?)

Theres also a "Bond 1977#2 XC" at ford discovery centre in Melbourne -or is that Bowdens.

I also heard Moff eventually sold his 351 engines to a ski boat racer and they ended their days in racing boats.

Perhaps AMC mag should do a bit of research on these most famous XB/Cs for their MIA section.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

So perhaps cobra#1 which became Fed #2 was a new car, .

Ooops that should read So perhaps cobra#1 which became FEDERATION #25 was a new car. there was no Fed #2 of course.

[racer69]

In 1978 Modern Motor did an article on the Bathurst 1000 from that, focusing on the different approaches taken by a professional team (Moffat Ford Dealers) and a privateer (Warren Cullen's Torana).

I'll have to dig the article out, but from memory it mentions in there that the two cars used by the Moffat team at Bathurst '78 were;

#1 - the #9 XB used at Bathurst in 1976.
#2 - The #2 car from the year before

Whether it was talking about the respective cars first Bathurst, or the last Bathurst the car was used in, i can't remember. I'll have a look for the mag and hopefully find out

Moffat's spare Falcon would surely have been an XD wouldn't it, not an XE?

[David Towe]

Originally Posted by prn 31

At the Historic Touring Car Festival at Oran Park yesterday there was a white Group C XE Falcon driven by Phil Kirkham.

I didn't get to see this vehicle close up or talk to anyone involved with it. But the on-course commentator said this was built up (and presumably logged) for Allan Moffat before he went riceburning with Mazda RX7s. They went on to say that Moffat's mechanic (can't recall the name) has owned the car ever since and I think this weekend was its first race meeting. It was pretty quick, but lost a wheel in a latter race and suffered minor damage.

My question is, fellow students, is this correct?

Btw the Historic Touring Car Festival was well supported by a sizable crowd and a few car club displays. However the fields for all touring car categories (N,C and A) were poor - in the single figures. It is a great concept, with real spectator appeal, but at a time where there are already a lot of (at least for Group N) other race meetings scheduled around the same time.

Miata is right, Nck owns the car. The wheel that fell off was also the one that some clown, overcome with red mist (me) ran into 9 inches off the ground at Winton 18 months ago. Nick attributes yesterday's problem to that hit, probably just trying to make me feel worse about the incident than I already do.......not possible.

The crowd figures were great, they had to print more tickets at 10 am. I spoke with Rowan Harman and Jeff (Oran Park) and they both have big plans for next year and beyond. They see a great opportunity to grow the meeting under a "National" permit meaning that guys like me who have a couple of sponsors to help pay the bills can leave their names on the cars which we can't do at an "Historic" meeting.

Most people who saw my car race wouldn't have picked the couple of new names or even cared. H&R uspension Systems, ADG Welding Supplies and Colto Roller Shutters all support the car, but because the signage is done in the same gold colour it doesn't detract from he overall look of the car.

These meetings therefore, become easier and cheaper to run at so I'll support the meeting in whatever way I can. The scrutineers whilst doing their jobs, weren't overzealous megalomaniacs and made the daily rituals of competing far more enjoyable than at any of the "Historic" meetings I've been to.

I believe that next year we'll see double the entries if the organisers can get it on the calendar earlier and at a better time in the year and possibly even another category on the programme.

The number of cars in Group A was only about 7 or 8, but I watched the first race from the pit wall (diff not changed in time) and the last race when I finished second to the ex Richards Skyline (now owned by Terry Ashwood) were both crackers. I think the crowd would have gone away at least saying there was some value for money entertainment on the day.

[Kerri]

Hey miata, how did Philly boy go on the weekend?

[Beejay17]

Re the Moffat Falcons:

There couldn't have been an XE. The yellow XD was built in a rush six weeks prior to Bathurst 1980 with the help of Lee Dykstra. It did a few shake down laps at Calder prior to going to Bathurst where it did qualifying and a handful of laps at Bathurst. The Mazda thing then got approved and the Falcon was sold unloved, to John English. I don't see how there could have been an XE as Moff was in the middle of a heavy commitment to Mazda which included drives at Daytona and Le Mans.

There were only ever three hardtops:

i) The ex-works XA converted to an XB at the begining of '74 which became the 'B52' burned to the ground at Adelaide in 1976.

ii) The 1976 replacement XB which was called 'Phoenix'.

iii) The 1977 XB built when Carroll Smith and Bond came into the team.

The later two were converted to XCs in 1977. The only thing you can be sure of is that the Bowdens own one of these cars. The value of a shell like that is relative to the price of authentic running gear that comes with it.

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Beejay17

Re the Moffat Falcons:

There couldn't have been an XE. The yellow XD was built in a rush six weeks prior to Bathurst 1980 with the help of Lee Dykstra. It did a few shake down laps at Calder prior to going to Bathurst where it did qualifying and a handful of laps at Bathurst. The Mazda thing then got approved and the Falcon was sold unloved, to John English. I don't see how there could have been an XE as Moff was in the middle of a heavy commitment to Mazda which included drives at Daytona and Le Mans.

There were only ever three hardtops:

i) The ex-works XA converted to an XB at the begining of '74 which became the 'B52' burned to the ground at Adelaide in 1976.

ii) The 1976 replacement XB which was called 'Phoenix'.

iii) The 1977 XB built when Carroll Smith and Bond came into the team.

The later two were converted to XCs in 1977. The only thing you can be sure of is that the Bowdens own one of these cars. The value of a shell like that is relative to the price of authentic running gear that comes with it.

What I have heard is that the Karamidis car was the second Moffat XD shell originally. After Moff turned Japanese, Nick got the car (shell) he put it together as an XE as that was the current configeration at the time (most race XE's started life as XD's) and raced the car in that configeration in Victoria (with a Group C Log Book) pre 1984.

As with the Historic rules, you must present the car as it raced in the period and as it only ever raced as an XE, an XE it is. The big shame here is that some years ago CAMS 'lost' the original log books and to this day the C of D is still being delayed.

Ford built 3 XA Hardtops, the Moffat and Gibson cars as well as the Orange one that Tubby Ritter ran at the Sandown 500 when the axle broke revealing the four wheel discs.

The Moffat car became his XB, Fred got the other that was later sold to Jim Keogh and written off at Lakeside. Keogh had Tubby build a new car out of the bits (this car is now in Tassie I believe).

Question is - what happened to the 'orange' car?

[Henry]

I will swear that I was told that the Moffat XA GT (Bathurst 1973 winner) was written off in a big crash at the final race of 1973 at Phillip Island, inflicting a cracked sternum upon Mr Moffat), and that the car supplied to Moffat for 1974 was the ex-Gibson car.

Also, there is a photo in existance of the Federation XC on std Ford alloys at the front fence of a Melbourne wrecker... apparently much of the running gear went into the yellow XD, and the shell was stored at the wreckers for some time, until Moffat reclaimed it and donated it to the Bathurst museum with the 1977 paint job.

The car found upside down at the tip was the ex-Carter Brian Wood Ford hardtop.

Additionally, would the change from the XD's rear leaf springs to the coils/Watts Link on the XE been practicable? Of the most well-known of the Gp.C XE's, the Johnson car was built new with Dick's XD going to Alf Grant, the Bob Morris and Joe Moore XD's were written off at Bathurst 1981, and replaced by new XE's mid-1982... and of the Carter and Callaghan XE's, I'm not up on their history.... as a starting point, let's have a look at the history of the more-famous XE's (note that I'm only really up on their Bathurst appearances, so other more knowledgable posters will have to fill in the gaps):

DJR
- 1982 XE debuted at Oran Park for enduro round, written off at Bathurst 1983
- 1984 XE debuted for ATCC, retained by DJR to this day

King George Tavern
- 1982 XE debuted. Raced by Joe Moore until end of Gp.C... still exists in originally livery I believe

Channel 7/Seiko (Alan Jones/Bob Morris)
- 1982 XE commissioned by Alan Jones, built by George Shepheard debuted by Bob Morris. Won Oran Park enduro. Crashed at Bathurst 1982 in Saturday practice.
- 1983 raced by Andrew Harris/Gary Cooke. Leased by DJR after Hardies Heroes accident.
- 1984 appeared at Bathurst as Freedom Fence car in the hands of Paul Jones/Peter Hopwood. Currently appearing in "Greens-Tuf Mark 2" livery.

Brian Callaghan
-1982 XE debut, replacing XD (whereabouts unknown). Campaigned by Callaghan/Bob Muir
-1983/84 - campaigned by Callaghan/Barry Graham. Current whereabouts unknown (to me anyway)

Murray Carter
-1982 XE built for enduroes. Not a happy car, and Murray flogged it off mid-1983. WHo knows where it is now?

Steve Masterton
- 1982 new XE built for Steve's attack on the outright classes. Written off in testing crash 1983
- 1983 replacement built for the original. Much better car, crashed in Bathurst practice, but rebuilt for the race
- 1984 same car campiagned throughout the year, crashed at Forrest's Elbow in 1984 Great Race. Repaired and sold to one of his mechanics, who has kept it since (appeared in an early edition of Aust Muscle Car, with the mechanic's name, which escapes me at this particular juncture... is this the vehicle we're talking about?).

The XD's were a bit more prolific, but most of the significant ones are accounted for.

[BlueMax]

I will think you will find the orange car was driven by Ian "Pete" Geoghegan at Sandown

[Amonfan]

Moff drove Gibbo's car at the Amaroo 74 ATCC round. The Carter XE is now owned and run by Neville Butler. It was raced by Jim Faneco and Tony Hubbard in 1983 at Bathurst and then was sold to Les Swallow of Corvair 4 dr Sports Sedan fame, yes there was 2 Corvairs . I believe Murray had a drive of this car at the island in 2004.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by Beejay17

Re the Moffat Falcons:

There couldn't have been an XE.

Im with you on this BJ. I have never heard of Moff preparing an XE nor did he have a 2nd XD shell AFAIK. AS you said the whole Fed XD thing was a last minute decision and rushed together as a single car for Bathurst. He had already decided his future wasnt in Falcons.

Originally Posted by Beejay17

There were only ever three hardtops:

i) The ex-works XA converted to an XB at the begining of '74 which became the 'B52' burned to the ground at Adelaide in 1976.

ii) The 1976 replacement XB which was called 'Phoenix'.

iii) The 1977 XB built when Carroll Smith and Bond came into the team.

The later two were converted to XCs in 1977. The only thing you can be sure of is that the Bowdens own one of these cars. The value of a shell like that is relative to the price of authentic running gear that comes with it.

This is what i keep reading. so tis prob right... but yet..

I think Henys quote

Originally Posted by Henry

the shell was stored at the wreckers for some time, until Moffat reclaimed it and donated it to the Bathurst museum with the 1977 paint job. The car found upside down at the tip was the ex-Carter Brian Wood Ford hardtop

clears up the story i had head about the crushed XC

So that makes the Bathurst Museum car the 77 car, and Bowden's car Phoenix (And the car at Ford Geelong is a mock up). For some reason they chose to change the read guards and repeaters on the 77 car but not those of Phoenix, in 1978. Wonder why?

I too have heard that Mof wrote off his works XA and got Gibsons, which eventually became B52. (so that really makes 4 hardtops....)

I seem to remember Moffs XD was sold to queenslander jon English, who raced it a few years, dont know where it ended up.

I think we have discussed this before,elsewhere BJ...

[Henry]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I seem to remember Moffs XD was sold to queenslander jon English, who raced it a few years, dont know where it ended up.

The ex-Moffat, ex-English XD (the one that chunked the wall off Skyline in the 1984 race) is in the Bowden Collection... I believe that it's in its Moffat livery, but due for a bit of a freshen-up.

Of the other XD's?

DJR
1980 - stripped out following "the Rock", the running gear was used in the construction of the 1981 car, which was a fairly successful and special car. The damaged shell was sold to John Donnelly, who rebuilt it and campaigned it until the end of the formula. The ex-Donnelly car is still in existence, in the hands of an unidentified owner, who has no plans to let it go.

1981 - the car constructed from the bits of the Rock car was Johnson's championship winner in 1981-2, Bathurst winner in 1981, and ran strongly in the hands of Alf Grant until the end of 1984. Johnson bought it back in 1989 (IIRC) and it features in his museum today.

Joe Moore commissioned the green King Geroge Tavern XD, built and co-driven in 1980 by Fred Gibson. Dick Johnson drove this car in the Surfers enduro in 1980, fitted with the engine from the rock car, leading until a faulty radiator cap set the thing to overheating. I believe that this car is the same one which arrived at McPhillamy Park 6 laps into Christine Gibson's last stint, only to find Bob Morris, chasing John French's 40-odd second lead, diving to the inside. The ensuing contact has been well-documented, and destroyed both the Gibson and Morris cars, did for the Rogers/Benson-Brown & Browne/Edmondson Commodores, blunted the Bartlett/Forbes Camaro and winged the Seldon Gemini.

Bob Morris shared the Bill O'Brien XD in 1980... Allan Moffat managed a couple of laps in it too. O'Brien campaigned this car under his Everlast banner, and srill owns and cherishes it... his sons are Ford-mad too I believe (one of the boys had a tidy XD featured in Street Machine in the last year or so)

In 1981, he commissioned George Shepheard to build him an XD. Shepheard hadn't done a Bathurst car before, and many scoffed at the lead-up (or lack thereof) to the 1981 Great Race... but it was running strongly until the 121st lap, when it met its end.

Of the less-famous ones, there were XD's for Murray Carter, Rusty French, Brian Callaghan, Jim Faneco, Ross Mathieson... the fates of which were never widely circulated... once again, there would be a number of people here who could probably shed some light on their fates