The 'Great' WEC Grid Girl Debate

[Peat]

Perhaps i'm just a snob, but i don't see much difference between a Grid Girl and this:


I am unapologetic about it too, that is human doing a job that a couple of bits of 2x4 could do. So, to my eye, it is demeaning.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I like how we're now picking and choosing photos to try and make the point. Happily ignoring any example which does not suit the arguments (which seems to change continually in this thread).

I'm providing examples that prove the fallacy that you are trying to promote. If you have examples that back up your claims, please feel free to post.

To sum this thread up:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Some men think it's their right to stare at pretty women who are doing nothing but being objects. When questioned on this, they will declare that the womans rights are being taken away. They will be unhappy at the suggestion of topples men doing the same job. They will not address why the series does not apparently have the right to remove this job role from the series which they own.

You have not understood the arguments at all. The question of the ladies rights surfaced because some were suggesting that these ladies were brainwashed into liking girly dresses and high heels, and if it wasn't for that, they would be engineers, racing drivers, policemen or doing other such non gender specific jobs. What was pointed out is that these women have a right to like dresses and high heels and to take any legal job that is offered to them. The rights argument was never used in relation to the men eyeing up half naked (but fully clothed) women.
The WEC's right not to employ these women has never been questioned. It's the reasons given that are a point of discord.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Glad to see that is summed up. Like the others who have agreed with the WECs decision, I'll now bow out of arguing in this thread. But I look forward to another 5 pages by tomorrow of the same people arguing that we're taking away womens rights to be objects for men to look at.

Who knew that treating men and women as equals would raise such an argument eh?

You may not agree with us, but the only difference between you and us is that we would as vehemently argue to protect your right not to agree, as we are arguing against this overreach by the professionally offended.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Peat

Perhaps i'm just a snob, but i don't see much difference between a Grid Girl and this:


I am unapologetic about it too, that is human doing a job that a couple of bits of 2x4 could do. So, to my eye, it is demeaning.

The difference is that the grid-girls are much better looking!
(That is their true crime)

[Spyderman]

Incedently: The picture below was posted on the WEC site in December 2014.
It is of the Official Award ceromony.
It funny to see that the 3-4 months ago the WEC had no qualms over women in decorative roles, or the message it sends.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

You may not agree with us, but the only difference between you and us is that we would as vehemently argue to protect your right not to agree, as we are arguing against this overreach by the professionally offended.

What you call "arguing" ...

To me, this thread is summed up in this wonderful picture here.

A quick glance over just a random selection of pages makes on encounter at least

• strawman
• slippery slope
• false cause
• ad hominem
• loaded question
• bandwagon
• the texas sharpshooter

Internet at its best.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Incedently: The picture below was posted on the WEC site in December 2014.
It is of the Official Award ceromony.
It funny to see that the 3-4 months ago the WEC had no qualms over women in decorative roles, or the message it sends.
http://www.fiawec.com/wpphpFichiers/...7-2046_hd.jpg]

You do realize that this is exactly how these things happen? Something as absurd as this happens, someone points out the absurdity, and then everybody gives some time to think about it, and changes happen. Really, this whole argument about grid girls is absurd.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ever wondered why it is a male dominated environment? Ever wondered if the presence of barely clothed women standing around to get mens attention is somewhat uncomfortable for women?

Stretch much? That one must have taken years of mental yoga. What a twist!

Maybe NASCAR would finally get popular if the series banned Confederate flags--I don't like the messages they send. or ... i could just ignore them.

Facts are, motorsports has always appealed more to men, whether grid girls were involved or not, and all things automotive have mostly appealed to men, for whatever reason having nothing to do with grid girls. Ask Road & Track and Autoweek, what percentage of their readers are male?

For that matter, how many women post here---where there are no grid girls?

No problem seeing the grid girls go, but let's not invent too too much when discussing it.

I assume all you folks saying grid girls kept women out of racing, a predicting a huge crowd of women at Silverstone?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

When you go to a beach there are people in swimwear because it's appropriate for that situation. People in swimwear is not appropriate for a racing circuit.

Who makes that decision?

I know when I go to Sebring the most scantily dressed women are in the crowd, and many of them are as old or older than I (which is somewhere between the pyramids and the formation of the Solar System.) Shopul d we force the ladies in tube tops and bikini tops to put on t-shirts or something?

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If you want this situation summed up: Some people are upset they don't get to look at half naked women at race tracks any more.

That is a flat lie, and a good way to start a fight.

If you dismiss the opinions of everyone who disagrees with you, whether or not they are rational, valid, and clearly presented, then you are pretty much part of the problem. Also, the "half-naked" is dishonest and inflammatory. Let's keep it real, eh?

It's funny, if you are honest, you can understand arguments you don't agree with, and can consider them without considering your personal views.

For instance, I can understand that some people claim some women are upset about grid girls ... which I think is a personal issue. After all, for many years white people in South Africa and the United States kept black people in subjugation and segregation because the white people felt uncomfortable around black people. I'd say the white people needed (and many still need to) grow up.

It is the same with gay people in the U.S. right now---gays make some people uncomfortable, and enough people feel that way that discrimination of gays is de facto allowed.

Maybe the ladies who are upset by the grid girls should stop seeing them and symbols and start seeing them as people and actually talk to them about how they feel and think?

I am not big on degrading women, but then, I am not sure that hiring grid girls was degrading towards women.

Tell me, if the grid girls were paid $100,000 per race session, $300,000 to $400,000 per weekend, would it be considered a degrading job? Would it be sending a message that women were objects? Or would it be sending a message that pretty women are valued highly?

And does that devalue women as a whole?

If so, women need to stop buying make-up and hair dye.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Peat

and is there anything that could be said to convince you that this is not about prudishness and more about sending a clear message that the series views women as have more to offer motorsport than being mere decorations.

Actually, the fact that women actually drive and work as engineers in the WEC pretty much presents that picture. Leena Gade is reasonably attractive, but that's not what she is best known for.

Janet Guthrie ... Shirley Muldowney ... nothing but sex symbols, eh?

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You do realize that this is exactly how these things happen? Something as absurd as this happens, someone points out the absurdity, and then everybody gives some time to think about it, and changes happen. Really, this whole argument about grid girls is absurd.

This argument hasn't been about grid girls since about halfway down Page One.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Stretch much? That one must have taken years of mental yoga. What a twist!

Maybe NASCAR would finally get popular if the series banned Confederate flags--I don't like the messages they send. or ... i could just ignore them.

Facts are, motorsports has always appealed more to men, whether grid girls were involved or not, and all things automotive have mostly appealed to men, for whatever reason having nothing to do with grid girls. Ask Road & Track and Autoweek, what percentage of their readers are male?

For that matter, how many women post here---where there are no grid girls?

No problem seeing the grid girls go, but let's not invent too too much when discussing it.

I assume all you folks saying grid girls kept women out of racing, a predicting a huge crowd of women at Silverstone?

That argumentation is flawed.
In stead of asking:

• What percentage of Road & Track and Autoweeks readers is Male?
• How many woman post here?

You should instead ask:

• Why isn't there a higher percentage of female readers of Road & Track
• Why doesn't more female post here?

Asking does question will get you answers you can work with and develop upon. Asking your original questions will only get you historical facts, which is of limited use when you want to move forward.

In basic, you ask the question (this is only an example):
"How much money are we losing?"
Which you can do nothing with.
Instead, asking:
"How much money are we losing and why?"
You will get the answer to develop yourself into the future.

I Hope this is the question that FIA/ACO has asked themselves, and found that they need to remove the Grid Girl element, which can be alienating for females, to ensure the WEC a modern brand that follows the current world views.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Incedently: The picture below was posted on the WEC site in December 2014.

So your point is that opinions aren't ever allowed to be changed? That way there would be no progress in the world, ever.

It seems to be that some people are hanging onto this because they're not willing to accept that times are changing. And for the better too.

All the WEC does is keep up with the way the world works these days, it's important that motorsports stays relevant to today's society and does not be an anachronism...because it won't be able to survive that way.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Actually, the fact that women actually drive and work as engineers in the WEC pretty much presents that picture. Leena Gade is reasonably attractive, but that's not what she is best known for.

Janet Guthrie ... Shirley Muldowney ... nothing but sex symbols, eh?

Originally Posted by Peat View Post
and is there anything that could be said to convince you that this is not about prudishness and more about sending a clear message that the series views women as have more to offer motorsport than being mere decorations.

..and that is the bottom line. Both men and women should be known for their talents, and expertise, not for being decorations. It is fine to be admired for good looks as well, but not as the primary reason. We should be encouraging more Leena Gade's, and some of the great PR people Sylvie Proudfoot, Kelly Brouillet, and Sylvie (?) from Michelin. All women positively contributing to Sportscar Racing, and who should be the role models young girls look up to. We need more of these type of people.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Acid09

So your point is that opinions aren't ever allowed to be changed? That way there would be no progress in the world, ever.

I have nothing against changing one's mind. We will see if their hypocracy continues or not. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by Acid09

It seems to be that some people are hanging onto this because they're not willing to accept that times are changing. And for the better too.

This is just yet another attempt to demonize those that disagree by insinuating they are nothing but knuckle dragging Neanderthals. There is absolutely no attempt to understand our argument.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

..and that is the bottom line. Both men and women should be known for their talents, and expertise, not for being decorations. It is fine to be admired for good looks as well, but not as the primary reason. We should be encouraging more Leena Gade's, and some of the great PR people Sylvie Proudfoot, Kelly Brouillet, and Sylvie (?) from Michelin. All women positively contributing to Sportscar Racing, and who should be the role models young girls look up to. We need more of these type of people.

Do you think that it may be a good idea to let each girl choose which role model they would like to emulate?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Do you think that it may be a good idea to let each girl choose which role model they would like to emulate?

I'm not sure someone whose value is strictly viewed as a decoration is a role model anyway. That isn't what society should be teaching young women, that how they look, is their only value.

[Spyderman]

Here we go again! Social Engineering! This is the fundamental difference between those that want to make everyone kowtow to what a certain group of “Illuminati” consider to be appropriate and their ideal society, and those of us that believe that each and every one of us should have the freedom to choose our destinies.

[chillibowl]

wow. and here i thought we know how to argue in the F1 forum! apparently not!

quick question as i havent seen an official reason why this practice has been stopped, but first question that comes to mind is there a lawsuit aimed at the promoters or perhaps the promoters fear a lawsuit?

given the number of photos these girls take with fans, many of which undoubtedly involve a drunk fan taking liberties with their hand placements, its only a matter of time someone decides that they are going to sue their employer for putting them in a position to be groped.

from a promoters point of view why expose oneself to that kind of risk?

[cmk]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

wow. and here i thought we know how to argue in the F1 forum! apparently not!

quick question as i havent seen an official reason why this practice has been stopped, but first question that comes to mind is there a lawsuit aimed at the promoters or perhaps the promoters fear a lawsuit?

given the number of photos these girls take with fans, many of which undoubtedly involve a drunk fan taking liberties with their hand placements, its only a matter of time someone decides that they are going to sue their employer for putting them in a position to be groped.

from a promoters point of view why expose oneself to that kind of risk?

Maybe it's as simple as a way to save money? Why pay all those appearance fees for models if you get relatively little ROI for it?

I thought WEC grid walk access was too tightly controlled to allow fans to take photos with grid girls? Isn't it more like an F1 situation?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by cmk

Maybe it's as simple as a way to save money? Why pay all those appearance fees for models if you get relatively little ROI for it?

I thought WEC grid walk access was too tightly controlled to allow fans to take photos with grid girls? Isn't it more like an F1 situation?

i was thinking more post race or any other functions they have the girls attend.

that said though, saving money seems more likely.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Here we go again! Social Engineering! This is the fundamental difference between those that want to make everyone kowtow to what a certain group of “Illuminati” consider to be appropriate and their ideal society, and those of us that believe that each and every one of us should have the freedom to choose our destinies.

i just realised what this panic is about.

you're not worried about women having equal opportunities and being treated the same.

you're worried about mens opportunities being degraded to those of women.

suddenly it all makes sense...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Here we go again! Social Engineering! This is the fundamental difference between those that want to make everyone kowtow to what a certain group of “Illuminati” consider to be appropriate and their ideal society, and those of us that believe that each and every one of us should have the freedom to choose our destinies.

Yikes... LOL

Some of us just don't view that oppressive practices should be continued. If that isn't something that is understandable, no explanation given will ever suffice.

This grandstanding with "Social Engineering" and "Illuminati" is ummm... well over the top. We are talking about Grid Girls here... not taking away P1, not silencing cars, not increasing ticket prices tenfold.... This is an issue that is almost as important to sportscar racing as whether race starts are 1pm or 2pm local time. As it's been said, no fans were ever gained with grid girls, and none will ever be lost.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by bella

i just realised what this panic is about.

you're not worried about women having equal opportunities and being treated the same.

you're worried about mens opportunities being degraded to those of women.

suddenly it all makes sense...

Well I'm glad it makes sense to you. It makes no sense to me.
Would you care to elaborate?

[bella]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Well I'm glad it makes sense to you. It makes no sense to me.
Would you care to elaborate?

the fact that you can't see it says it all, sir.

ladies and gentlemen, this is what's known as male privilege. it's the inability (or refusal) of menfolk to see, perceive or understand issues that women face, because they are men and not subject to those issues.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Yikes... LOL

Some of us just don't view that oppressive practices should be continued. If that isn't something that is understandable, no explanation given will ever suffice.

This grandstanding with "Social Engineering" and "Illuminati" is ummm... well over the top. We are talking about Grid Girls here... not taking away P1, not silencing cars, not increasing ticket prices tenfold.... This is an issue that is almost as important to sportscar racing as whether race starts are 1pm or 2pm local time. As it's been said, no fans were ever gained with grid girls, and none will ever be lost.

Actually your argument was not really about grid-girls. It was about choosing who you think should be the role models for women, and whilst many would agree with your choice, the issue I have with it is that it isn't really up to you. My take is that it is really up to each girl.

I do agree however, that there is little interest in discussing this further, as there is a fundamental philosophical difference in how we see the world and what we want it to look like in the future.