FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[Peter Mallett]

Yes I can see that for Group A things are easier since it was used seamlessly all over the world. Unlike Group 1.5 or Francorchamps regs.

[Gerard C]

In France, probably as a test, the ex-Production cars homologated in Grp1 between '76 and '81 are accepted with no HTP. Unfortunately, the year of reference is '81 which, as far as I can remember, was not the best. But OK, its a good move forward I presume.

[Gerard C]

For a moment, I hoped that both MSA and FFSA could find an agreement around the Grp 1,5 regs to be applied in our two countries. Could it be the case one day or another or is there a law provision restricting this kind of thing? English rules seemed good enough not to dig up french Production ones.

[AntA35]

Morning.

I wonder if you could help clarify for me, as I am somewhat confused with how to interpret all of this.

I understand that if a car is prepared to say 1978 Group 1 specification and obtains an HTP to this specification, it cannot then add parts homologated thereafter and maintain a valid HTP. That is understood.

What if a car originally built and prepared in 1974 to Group 1 spec, is subsequently upgraded in period with homologated parts to 1977/1978 specification and is then retired from racing. Can that car now apply developed parts (some homologated, some not) that were known to have been used on other cars of the same model that ran up to 1981? i.e. can that original car apply Group 1B/BSCC parts that other cars of the same model were known to have run in 1981 and then apply for a new HTP, whilst maintaining its 1977/1978 livery? Or, does the car have to lose its livery and use one from 1981 and become a visual replica of a 1981 car?

[Peter Mallett]

I believe the requirement is to run the car as it was in period thus if it is a 1976 car then it can't run 1981 parts that were homolgated subsequent to its years of competition.

It's a dilemma though because theoretically you may be able to run anything that was homologated in period. The difficulty is that you have to show that those parts were actually installed on the car, or the car that you are replicating, in question.

This is what I had to do for the Rover.

[Mike Bell]

The already muddy waters are further discoloured by the Gp1B / BSCC special period regulations! My take is that Peter is correct, and as he has jumped through the hoops with his own car, knows a lot more than me....

One question though- If the car you have is a period racer with proven history, is it not better to keep it as originally raced?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

The already muddy waters are further discoloured by the Gp1B / BSCC special period regulations! My take is that Peter is correct, and as he has jumped through the hoops with his own car, knows a lot more than me....

One question though- If the car you have is a period racer with proven history, is it not better to keep it as originally raced?

Indeed on both counts.

[Gerard C]

The last question was: can that original car apply Group 1B/BSCC parts that other cars of the same model were known to have run in 1981 and then apply for a new HTP, whilst maintaining its 1977/1978 livery? Or, does the car have to lose its livery and use one from 1981 and become a visual replica of a 1981 car?
Then if Anta35 wants to build an ultimate weapon, should he change the livery to adapt the color scheme to the last homologation year?

[Peter Mallett]

Yes but then it becomes a replica.

[Gerard C]

Indeed.

[AntA35]

Thank you all for your input on this. You have confirmed what I had thought.

Look forward to seeing how Goodwood get their heads around this in March.

Lots of older liveried cars are running younger homologated/BSCC parts than their liveries would allow if the HTPs are utilised and enforced correctly.

For example, there is a replica of a 1974 Group 1 car running at Goodwood and as such it should have twin SU carbs, not Weber 48s (as homologated for 76/77, let alone the Weber 50s it has been using), it should have standard thin unvented front discs for brakes (not the vented ones it has), the tubular exhaust it has should be replaced for cast iron manifold etc etc...

Therefore for this car to maintain it competitiveness it will have to find a livery from 1981/82 to copy to get the most advantageous set of parts applicable for its HTP. Either that or it accepts it will be woefully slow, keeps its 1974 livery, removes all of the post 1974 parts and doesn’t get invited back again.

Doesn’t this mean that eventually everyone will be driving around in replicas of the same car eventually in order to maintain the most competitive car?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by AntA35

Therefore for this car to maintain it competitiveness it will have to find a livery from 1981/82 to copy to get the most advantageous set of parts applicable for its HTP. Either that or it accepts it will be woefully slow, keeps its 1974 livery, removes all of the post 1974 parts and doesn’t get invited back again.

Doesn’t this mean that eventually everyone will be driving around in replicas of the same car eventually in order to maintain the most competitive car?

Ah, we're talking about the Members Meeting. Personally I'd rather keep the car correct, be slow, and not be invited back again. There's more to life than one race at Goodwood....... (I did, it was, and I wasn't... )

[Alex E]

If a car was Homologated for Gp 2 but one was never used in period, does this mean it can`t be used in historics today ?
I think one example of the is the Reliant Scimitar GTE ?

alex

[zefarelly]

Alex, If it Homologated You should be able to use it . . . . Whether race organisers want to see it or not is another matter. Remember, what really happened then is irrelevant to what happens now, which is a commercially biased take on what certain people with vested interests want us to think was history.

[Mike Bell]

The example of Scimitar GTE is interesting. Looking at the papers there are no extensions to the standard car homologation, which is perhaps why, apart from places like HSCC and CSCC, you don’t see many racing......

[Robyn Slater]

Does anyone know the situation with S2 Europas. (Renault powered) Did they race in period?

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

Does anyone know the situation with S2 Europas. (Renault powered) Did they race in period?

Look on the FIA Historic Database

https://historicdb.fia.com/cars/list?search=europa

If Homologated, you can race it.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Alex E

If a car was Homologated for Gp 2 but one was never used in period, does this mean it can`t be used in historics today ?
I think one example of the is the Reliant Scimitar GTE ?

alex

If the car is/was homologated then there is no need for it to have raced in an International event in period.The classic case, long established, is the Gilbern GT

[Alex E]

OK that's interesting, thanks Jeremy...

[Alex E]

Maybe a little OT but what exactly are the rules regarding electronics in cars period H1 and H2 ?
I see some cars with updated electronic equipment such as ignition, rev counters, alternators etc.....is this generally accepted for reliability reasons ?
Or has it just not been noticed....alex

[Peter Mallett]

I think rev limiters have become acceptable for reliability reasons. Likewise electronic ignition. I recall Masters being one of the first to permit them.

I tried to stick to original ignition and then one day, an hour into the Spa 3hrs the heel fell off the points coming out of Raidilon. Race over.

[Duddha]

Nothing has changed. The rules are there, we try our best to implement them and then they are ignored at events or cars put back to a specification which wouldn't have been accepted.

On electronic ignition. Masters regulations are "Series" regulations and have their specific rules for MSD in Period F, other than that Appendix K stands - if applied properly.

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed Louis. I should have clarified that series regs permit certain changes.

[p261brm]

I have been given the impression that air boxes on Chevron B19/21 are causing confusion with regards to being not fitted in period. I can assure those who are concerned for FIA paper purposes they were. They were not at first available from Chevron! but from John Lepp / Mirfield Garage, as he had the moulds made at his expense. The photo left taken October 1972 at Rouen Paris 1000Kms.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by p261brm

I have been given the impression that air boxes on Chevron B19/21 are causing confusion with regards to being not fitted in period. I can assure those who are concerned for FIA paper purposes they were. They were not at first available from Chevron! but from John Lepp / Mirfield Garage, as he had the moulds made at his expense. The photo left taken October 1972 at Rouen Paris 1000Kms.

Thanks Stuart. There was dialogue between some teams and scrutineers at Barcelona two weeks ago concerning air boxes, but I’m not sure of the outcome. Am now endeavouring to get the full picture.......