Future Grands Prix?

[dsg]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i worry that combining this with more races would just lower the level of performance for every race. a greater dilution of sport if you will?

supposition: fewer races allows teams to put the best versions of themselves out there across those fewer events?

So would altering the salary cap. Isn't the test to obtain the best overall performance within a set of constraints. Managing the team's performance effectively for 20+ races being one of those constraints.

Cricket comes to mind. Is the 3hr T20 or 5 day test diluting the game?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by dsg

Cricket comes to mind. Is the 3hr T20 or 5 day test diluting the game?

That would be like asking if Formula E has diluted F1.

The cricket equivalent would be asking for the ashes to be played over 9 tests rather than 5-6. Then, many would say that the ashes are diluted I expect.

[Richard C]

Its unclear to me on this idea of A/B squads for a larger number of races. I know that in the past there as the "race team" and the "testing team". While I expect there might be commonality in resources needed (particularly mechanics and other "operational" needs like drivers, and other support resources). I can't imagine the teams are structured identically. So for race weekends you need race engineers, strategists, etc. I can't imagine teams would want to double up on everything. So there would be a number of roles (including drivers!) who would likely need to participate in ALL races. It would be a grind.

If you want to increase the race count significantly then instead split the season so that you have parallel events in two different "series" with a short finale series to determine champions. But I don't really think that would work for other reasons. Including huge cost.

I think the answer is that there is a number of races per season that is just too much to try to do when balancing cost, impact on the team members and frankly dilution of the championship by reducing the overall value of each event (the more events, the less each has an individual impact on the championship).

I love F1, but if I want to watch more racing, I would probably rather just watch other types of racing than more F1.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

given that this is also a sporting endeavour, how much training and practice are the crews doing between races? i would imagine their time is already pretty limited.

for sure cost would be a factor, one that would still hurt the smaller budget teams more, but putting that aside, while multiple crews per team seems like the logical solution to more races, my concern would be that between subbing crew members in and out, A & B squads how frequently would we see a team's best crew at any given race?

removing a teams ability to always field their best crew might seem appealing (more mistakes more 'random' occurrences), i worry that combining this with more races would just lower the level of performance for every race. a greater dilution of sport if you will?

supposition: fewer races allows teams to put the best versions of themselves out there across those fewer events?

i dont know where the sweet spot is (personally for me its around 16-17) but surely its not 24+ either.

is anyone here, among us actual fans, looking forward to a longer calendar? i cant say i recall anyone ever supporting it?

I'm not looking forward to 25 races, especially if we get a repeat of this year, with the WDC already decided and there are races still to be run; they almost become an after thought. 17 races seems a bit short, I think 19 or 20 is about right.

Having too many races becomes overkill and think that is what will happen in the US. The novelty of having races in Miami and Vegas will wear off and the races will eventually drop off the calendar and then Liberty will be left scratching their heads looking around for the next cash cow.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by dsg

So would altering the salary cap. Isn't the test to obtain the best overall performance within a set of constraints. Managing the team's performance effectively for 20+ races being one of those constraints.

great point...as a supporter of the budget cap i do like that the teams have to work under a more uniform set of constraints and for sure this is a major aspect of the competition.

things like less money meant less staff so presumably when making those staffing choices, teams chose to hold on to the best and let go of the rest.

so i have no issue with constraints when they lead to efficiency but would more races with an increase of money and a need for increasing staff/crew sizes be more efficient?

again im just speaking in the hypothetical...its very well possible that under the cap, economies of scale etc, peak performance requires 24+ races, more money, and more staff...personally i dont think so but it could be the case?

i guess whether we like it or not, we are going to find out next season.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not looking forward to 25 races, especially if we get a repeat of this year, with the WDC already decided and there are races still to be run...Having too many races becomes overkill...

and its not just the the chips being decided early...does anyone really have the money left to push the competitive envelope in these close out races?

while im a big fan of the cap, i must acknowledge that the cap (in its early stages at least) has not done much to improve just how competitive many teams can or want to be at this stage of the season.

will be interesting to see how this Alpine v Mclaren battle plays out, who will be risky with their engines and who will play it safe but i suspect neither has much money left to fight with. more so for Haas and AT.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and its not just the the chips being decided early...does anyone really have the money left to push the competitive envelope in these close out races?

while im a big fan of the cap, i must acknowledge that the cap (in its early stages at least) has not done much to improve just how competitive many teams can or want to be at this stage of the season.

will be interesting to see how this Alpine v Mclaren battle plays out, who will be risky with their engines and who will play it safe but i suspect neither has much money left to fight with. more so for Haas and AT.

17 races a year would average out to a race once every 3 weeks, so I think 16-18 races is about the optimum in terms of really looking after the teams, a reasonable cost cap and allowing for say, 3 days testing as a prelude to the season, plus maybe a mid-season test.

We are at a stage where all the teams have enough financial backing to fill out the cost cap amount without anyone being significantly short on cash flow so we are arriving at a point where we are probably entering an era where who does the best job and make the most effective use of resources, will rise to the top of the pile if they are not already there.

Unless there are significant profits being piled up for the benefit of the teams the extra races are just putting more personal resource challenges on teams with little real gain in both the quality of inter-team competition and the quality of the championship as a series.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

We are at a stage where all the teams have enough financial backing to fill out the cost cap amount

Are we?

The reason I ask is that the FIA said this when the cap was introduced:

"Some teams currently spend more than [the cap] over a season – though not necessarily all on performance. Other teams spend nowhere near that amount for all of their activities combined."

What is the level that teams such as Haas and Sauber were spending before the cap?

Some estimates put their spending on performance elements as being less than $110M.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm not looking forward to 25 races, especially if we get a repeat of this year, with the WDC already decided and there are races still to be run; they almost become an after thought. 17 races seems a bit short, I think 19 or 20 is about right.

Having too many races becomes overkill and think that is what will happen in the US. The novelty of having races in Miami and Vegas will wear off and the races will eventually drop off the calendar and then Liberty will be left scratching their heads looking around for the next cash cow.

Can't disagree here

[seanyb505]

I'm guessing they'll put a shiny price tag on the whole circus when they see that writing on the wall, before it's evident the next cash cow is unknown

[tux]

Not a huge fan of F1 pushing the whole "net zero, carbon neutral" marketing stuff while at the same time flying showcars out to Las Vegas to do a few donuts for a launch party.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Are we?

The reason I ask is that the FIA said this when the cap was introduced:

"Some teams currently spend more than [the cap] over a season – though not necessarily all on performance. Other teams spend nowhere near that amount for all of their activities combined."

What is the level that teams such as Haas and Sauber were spending before the cap?

Some estimates put their spending on performance elements as being less than $110M.

There were reports after COTA that Steiner was saying that the sponsorship would bring them up to or close to the cost cap. That may be at the bottom end in a list of top to bottom for funding but I'm fairly sure that the lower teams are all within 5% of the cost cap for 2023.

That was the point of the exercise so with F1 becoming more self-sustaining overall having the lower teams in a state where they were at the cost cap or close to it creates a state where they all become self-sustainable. Their owners may contribute something to operations but essentially the stronger teams are actually able to be profit making centers for their owners or cost them relatively little.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

There were reports after COTA that Steiner was saying that the sponsorship would bring them up to or close to the cost cap. That may be at the bottom end in a list of top to bottom for funding but I'm fairly sure that the lower teams are all within 5% of the cost cap for 2023.

If this is the case that is ace. Perhaps take 5% off now

It’ll take some time for parity to be reached, but the longer we go with it the better it becomes. However there will always be the some teams that are serial underachievers.

And franchise, sorry team, values will increase as there is profit for all!

Potentially at some point they could expand and bring in more teams. Need to do some clever profit share on that, but could be done.

Doesn’t have to be perfect, just good enough…

[Adam43]

There is a salary cap thread: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157449

Let’s go there for that discussion. Do you want me to move the posts here relevant to that there?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by tux

Not a huge fan of F1 pushing the whole "net zero, carbon neutral" marketing stuff while at the same time flying showcars out to Las Vegas to do a few donuts for a launch party.

way harsh bro! you dont know how many trees they pledged to plant as an offset!

[crmalcolm]

Dutch Grand Prix: Formula 1 extends contract until 2025

'Formula 1 will continue to race in the Netherlands until at least 2025 after the Dutch Grand Prix at Zandvoort signed an extended contract.

The deal adds races in 2024 and 2025 to the initial three years agreed with F1.'

[S griffin]

See no reason for it not to continue. The drivers love the circuit and of course it attracts a great crowd

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by S griffin

See no reason for it not to continue. The drivers love the circuit and of course it attracts a great crowd

indeed! one of the best new additions to the calendar and hopefully one i will be able to attend one day!

[wolfhound]

Saudi Arabia has a 10 year contract to host GP's and will be the opening race in 2024 to avoid Ramadan.
Melbourne has signed a 2 year extension and will now host GP's until 2037 with at least four being the season opener.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/sa...ener/10411599/

[chillibowl]

for sure there are issues with SA hosting a race through which they will sports wash themselves of the appearance that many of their laws stand in contradiction to the pledges of unity and inclusion F1 claims to adhere to.

that said, i am fascinated with the notion of being able to see this race grow and evolve from Jeddah (which i dont hate as a temporary race track to be honest) to a purpose built race track venue in this soon to be newly created and futuristic looking city in the desert.

of course if we get to 10 years and they are still in Jeddah disappoint will abound!

[hondafan37]

A fourth race in the United States? Verstappen proposes to race at Road America.
In addition to the Wisconsin circuit, Max thinks that Laguna Seca and Virginia would be good destinations.
Of the Europeans circuits, he thinks a return to Mugello would be very nice, having enjoyed a lot there in 2020.

https://soymotor.com/f1/noticias/una...n-road-america

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

A fourth race in the United States? Verstappen proposes to race at Road America.
In addition to the Wisconsin circuit, Max thinks that Laguna Seca and Virginia would be good destinations.
Of the Europeans circuits, he thinks a return to Mugello would be very nice, having enjoyed a lot there in 2020.

https://soymotor.com/f1/noticias/una...n-road-america

If Formula 1 went to either Road America or Laguna Seca they would ruin them.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If Formula 1 went to either Road America or Laguna Seca they would ruin them.

He also mentions "Virginia". Given his experience in online racing, I broadly assume this has to be VIR as I think it is well represented in online racing games (such as iRacing). While VIR is my "home track" and just a bit of an hour drive away and I would love to have a race near me, it also would be ruined by the requirements imposed by F1. VIR is also pretty much in the middle of nowhere with effectively no lodging, etc. Laguna Seca might be the closest to reality due to it's proximity to infrastructure.

If we are talking hypothetical "pure on track racing", all three tracks are fabulous or even straight up iconic (such as Laguna Seca). Laguna Seca is a bit on the short side.

Richard

[S griffin]

I do agree, that fun as it would be to see F1 cars race around Road America or Laguna Seca, it just isn't going to happen. They probably require quite a few changes and I doubt the circuits would want to do that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

He also mentions "Virginia". Given his experience in online racing, I broadly assume this has to be VIR as I think it is well represented in online racing games (such as iRacing). While VIR is my "home track" and just a bit of an hour drive away and I would love to have a race near me, it also would be ruined by the requirements imposed by F1. VIR is also pretty much in the middle of nowhere with effectively no lodging, etc. Laguna Seca might be the closest to reality due to it's proximity to infrastructure.

If we are talking hypothetical "pure on track racing", all three tracks are fabulous or even straight up iconic (such as Laguna Seca). Laguna Seca is a bit on the short side.

Richard

I used to live in Carmel, which is not far away from Laguna Seca and the local infrastructure and the Monterey Peninsula could accommodate F1. Currently IndyCar and IMSA have rounds there. It's the expense for the requirements imposed by F1 that couldn't be justified.