LMP1 diesel performance adjustment

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

and more downforce should mean better under braking.

No, no. Braking = stopping weight The Pescarolo is running with lead to meet the minimum LMP1 weight (925 kg), while diesel power LMP1s have a hard time getting there. Remember the Audi R10 weighed 935 kg last year at Le Mans and that is without roof.

Another disadvantage is that most of the weight is in the back. Hence the Pescarolo being better in medium and high speed corners.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by henk4

they might start making some additional white and subsequent black flags then....

And they will not meet the qualifing limit. So petrol powered LMP1s don't have to start, saving even more fuel

[Flat12-Aircool]

Ok, so now we have finished qualifying in Valencia what do we see?

Yes folks the Audi engined - Swiss Spirit Lola that the Diesel fanboys were pinning their hopes on is nearly 2 seconds behind the leading Petrol LMP1!

And before somebody says that it's only their first race, true but it's also Zytek's first race this season and they've done quite well haven't they?

Have the Diesel lobby any more excuses as to why the ACO's regulations are so broken?

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Ok, so now we have finished qualifying in Valencia what do we see?

Yes folks the Audi engined - Swiss Spirit Lola that the Diesel fanboys were pinning their hopes on is nearly 2 seconds behind the leading Petrol LMP1!

And before somebody says that it's only their first race, true but it's also Zytek's first race this season and they've done quite well haven't they?

Have the Diesel lobby any more excuses as to why the ACO's regulations are so broken?

So, if the Lola-Audi is two seconds behind the leading LMP1 Gasoline car, maybe it's time to claw back the Zytek, right? (and the difference between the leading Peugeot and the Zytek, and the same Zytek to the next Gas LMp1 car is the same!!!)

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Ok, so now we have finished qualifying in Valencia what do we see?

Yes folks the Audi engined - Swiss Spirit Lola that the Diesel fanboys were pinning their hopes on is nearly 2 seconds behind the leading Petrol LMP1!

And before somebody says that it's only their first race, true but it's also Zytek's first race this season and they've done quite well haven't they?

Have the Diesel lobby any more excuses as to why the ACO's regulations are so broken?

So what exactly is your argument? The Zytek is a second back from the diesels.....about where i would expect a non-works very good team to be!!!! Fact is they have done a brilliant job with a brand new car

Frankly to a certain extent the other teams just are not doing as good a job as Arena!!!!

And tbh do you not think something is slightly wrong if a private team is actually as quick as a full works effort? Pugs budget of 100 million euros over 3 years is without a doubt bigger than the rest of the field combined !!! Surely that means that they are going to optimise their package better than privateers on 5 million can achieve ?

And while i do think that the diesels do have a rules advantage i do think we need more data before we can decide how much they need to be reigned back!!! Hence NOTHING will happen until the end of the year.

And to call people Diesel Fan boys is more than a little condescending do you not think? Just accept that not everyone will agree with you - quite a lot of those people were just trying to be fair!!!

[canam]

What makes you think that the Pug was trying? On pole by more than a second (to the petrol brigade) on a circuit that was thought to be the weakest for the Pug. They had pole by a country mile. Why try? and only get bad press.

At Monza it was rumoured that Minassian had another second in the bag in quali and they called him in to the pit. We will really only get a true sense of the situation at Le Mans when the oilers are thrashing it out with eachother.

Like Monza, they will have two seconds a lap in hand over all and sundry. Yawwwwwwwwn. The battle for third to eight, however, will be a real humdinger.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Yes folks the Audi engined - Swiss Spirit Lola that the Diesel fanboys were pinning their hopes on is nearly 2 seconds behind the leading Petrol LMP1!

And before somebody says that it's only their first race, true but it's also Zytek's first race this season and they've done quite well haven't they?

You are a bit confused. The LMP2 Zytek already did one race

The new Zytek 07S obviously is based on the hybrid car of last year. So Arena has some clear understanding how to set up the car. Swiss Spirit on the other hand is working with a completely new package: new team, new chassis and new engine.

Just compare the time Swiss Spirit did in qualifying with practice 3: they were slower, while Arena improved almost 2 sec.

I think the difference in performance between the factory team (i.e., Peugeot) and the rest seems fine: a bit more than 1 sec. Do not forget Peugeot had a big head start because they tested on the track 2 months ago. Just look at how much quicker the Saleens have been all weekend; they only tested at Valencia during the winter.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

And while i do think that the diesels do have a rules advantage i do think we need more data before we can decide how much they need to be reigned back!!! Hence NOTHING will happen until the end of the year.

More data, More data, that's all the Diesel crowd ever say. You just said it yourself that you admit they have an rules advantage, so why do we need more data? I'm not suggesting they slow the Diesels just give the Petrols a slightly larger restrictor, at least something would be a start.

Canam was right in his comments, Valencia is supposed to be more friendly to shorter wheelbase/lighter cars not Long V12 Oilburners and yet the Petrols still can't even get close to the Peugeot's. 1 second a lap is still a huge margin on a 2.5 mile track like Valencia.

But I know all too well nothing is going to happen before at least the end of the year because the corrupt ACO have done a deal with the Diesel merchants, so I know not to expect anything.

As for the Fan Boy comment, well anybody who continues to defend the Diesel rules in the face of the huge amount of opposing evidence must be a Fan Boy.

If the Cap fits...

[gwyllion]

Well, there is only 1 true benchmark and that is Le Mans. Last year

• the first diese (Audi) did 380 laps and the first petrol (Pescarolo) did 376 laps
• the fastest diesel race lap was 3:31.211 and the fastest petrol car did it in 3:35.656
• the fastest diesel qualifying lap was 3:30.466 and the fastest petrol managed 3:32.584

With the manufacturer battle gearing up we will finally see the true performance difference between works diesels and customer petrol cars. And ACO can make the appropriate rule changes...

[MulsanneMike]

The one thing that is simply not being looked at is this...assuming all is equal, power, fuel consumption, weight, gas vs diesel, one thing never will be, torque. So the regulations as written are intended to not be equal as a gas powered car will never develop the levels of torque that a diesel will yet a diesel will match it in power (some even say exceed), match in fuel consumption (or exceed in efficiency), and match in weight (equal for all). And that's where the regulations break down on that one point, torque. And again, that's also assuming all is equal which we know isn't the case for fuel consumption and power.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

With the manufacturer battle gearing up we will finally see the true performance difference between works diesels and customer petrol cars. And ACO can make the appropriate rule changes...

Ultimately comparing Apples to raisins. A proper comparison is Works Diesel vs. Works Petrol. At best we can only estimate what the difference in performance of this is.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

And that's where the regulations break down on that one point, torque. And again, that's also assuming all is equal which we know isn't the case for fuel consumption and power.

This issue already existed in the petrol rules: turbo charged engines have a higher torque than NA engines. Bigger displacement also means more torque.

Maybe ACO should look at the rally raid rules. There all cars have the same restrictor (so same power level), but bigger displacement (hence more torque) means higher minimum weight.

IMSA seems to have it right: slightly lower minimum weight for petrol car compared to diesels.

[SebringMG]

Yes the ACO do seem to be a little biased towards the diesel manufacturers after all they are the only manufacturers actually willing to have put their money where there mouth is and gone racing in the top class...yes overly simplistic but true nonetheless!!!!

Now i do not support the diesels in any way shape or form and would much rather see my fav Zyteks win day in day out i do also see the rules in a more unbiased light than certain people on this forum.....

The problem with equalising the performance of the diesels to the petrols is that no works petrol cars exist....hence the diesels will be brought back to the level of privateer petrols.....then a petrol manufacturer comes along and with the SAME rules will go 2-3 seconds quicker......face it maunfacturers have money to burn and a works car will always be quicker.

Way i see it the diesels have a 2-3 second advantage at most tracks and prob about 5 at LM - half of that is due to the regs not bein equal the other half is due to better aero, chassis, tyres etc.....it is NOT as simple as equalising the fuels.........<rant over>

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

IMSA seems to have it right: slightly lower minimum weight for petrol car compared to diesels.

Seems a good place to start combined with a decreased restrictir size for the diesels but maybe give them back the 100 litre tank ?

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Way i see it the diesels have a 2-3 second advantage at most tracks and prob about 5 at LM - half of that is due to the regs not bein equal the other half is due to better aero, chassis, tyres etc.....it is NOT as simple as equalising the fuels.........<rant over>

Well let's at least give the petrols back the half that is down to the reg's then shall we?

Better than just doing nothing and having a whole season of complete walkovers for the Diesels.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This issue already existed in the petrol rules: turbo charged engines have a higher torque than NA engines. Bigger displacement also means more torque.

Maybe ACO should look at the rally raid rules. There all cars have the same restrictor (so same power level), but bigger displacement (hence more torque) means higher minimum weight.

IMSA seems to have it right: slightly lower minimum weight for petrol car compared to diesels.

Perhaps, but the difference is nothing in comparison to diesel to turbo gas.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Yes the ACO do seem to be a little biased towards the diesel manufacturers after all they are the only manufacturers actually willing to have put their money where there mouth is and gone racing in the top class...yes overly simplistic but true nonetheless!!!!

Now i do not support the diesels in any way shape or form and would much rather see my fav Zyteks win day in day out i do also see the rules in a more unbiased light than certain people on this forum.....

The problem with equalising the performance of the diesels to the petrols is that no works petrol cars exist....hence the diesels will be brought back to the level of privateer petrols.....then a petrol manufacturer comes along and with the SAME rules will go 2-3 seconds quicker......face it maunfacturers have money to burn and a works car will always be quicker.

Way i see it the diesels have a 2-3 second advantage at most tracks and prob about 5 at LM - half of that is due to the regs not bein equal the other half is due to better aero, chassis, tyres etc.....it is NOT as simple as equalising the fuels.........<rant over>

Huh? Do Peugeot and Audi get special Michelin tires?

"Two hundred thousand people come to Le Mans to see a race, not a diesel parade."

- Henri Pescarolo (four time Le Mans winner...also won 1991 24 Hours of Daytona)
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58385

Where is the P1 Porsche? Diesels still favored.

Porsche's motorsport boss Hartmut Kristen

http://translate.google.com/translat...t/view/2821/1/

Marion Andretti thinks the rules favor diesels. Check the November, 2006 issue of Excellence.

The best rule change might be the most expensive: give the turbodiesels a maximum engine displacement of 4.0 liters like the rest of the turbo'd gasoline engines.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by bil588

Huh? Do Peugeot and Audi get special Michelin tires?

"Two hundred thousand people come to Le Mans to see a race, not a diesel parade."

- Henri Pescarolo (four time Le Mans winner...also won 1991 24 Hours of Daytona)
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58385

Where is the P1 Porsche? Diesels still favored.

Porsche's motorsport boss Hartmut Kristen

http://translate.google.com/translat...t/view/2821/1/

Marion Andretti thinks the rules favor diesels. Check the November, 2006 issue of Excellence.

The best rule change might be the most expensive: give the turbodiesels a maximum engine displacement of 4.0 liters like the rest of the turbo'd gasoline engines.

Is the rumoured P1 Honda a diesel or Petrol, has a P2 petrol car beaten a P1 Diesel this year?

Porsche are past masters at making full use of rules to there advantage(917, Dauer, 911GT1) so i lose little sleep over them, they will come back only if petrol is given advantages over Diesel.

For them the best way to do that is let Pesca push for the rule breaks, then once given, leap in and take full advantage and once again the status quo is restored. A works team is quicker than a privateer.

As for Pesca and his rants, he said the same about the R8, he should spend a bit more time getting his cars faster and a bit less whining to the press.

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by Nordic

As for Pesca and his rants, he said the same about the R8, he should spend a bit more time getting his cars faster and a bit less whining to the press.

In my humble opinion this is not a good way to finish your argue; Maybe he and all the members of his team work more and better than anyone. I think we have enough evidences.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Originally Posted by bil588

The best rule change might be the most expensive: give the turbodiesels a maximum engine displacement of 4.0 liters like the rest of the turbo'd gasoline engines.

And why should the atmo engines have a bigger (6littre) displacement than Turbos?
Ohhh yes, Turbo engines are better than atmo engines for the same displacement.

Isn't it the same between atmo petrol engines and turbo-diesel engines

Heck, bring back the fuel formula of the group C days and impose a 45 littre per 100 km limit Then see which is engine is more efficient (power vs economy)



PS: At Valencia, we saw a Zytek (4l V8 atmo engine ) that was "only" 30 seconds behind the leading Peugeot at the 3 hour mark... Oh yeah, the Pugs must have been sandbagging

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

PS: At Valencia, we saw a Zytek (4l V8 atmo engine ) that was "only" 30 seconds behind the leading Peugeot at the 3 hour mark... Oh yeah, the Pugs must have been sandbagging

Yes, but remember the early laps; Peugeot, without any other car in front and full of petrol: #8 1. 25. 305, and #7 1. 25. 382.

Arena Zytek (the fastest LMP1 petrol), 1. 27. 327.

so 2 sec. lap in a small circuit. If Peugeot would be reliable...

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by bil588

Huh? Do Peugeot and Audi get special Michelin tires?
[/I].

Actually yes they do!!!

Also quite few of the spectatators will get behind the manufacturers involved, you can guarantee the french will get behind the Pugs and care less about the privateer petrol cars....after all frances car market is predominantly diesel!!

With regard to Honda it will probably either be a petrol engine or a hybrid - I don't see a diesel fiting in with Honda corporate policy - most likely the hybrid option given hondas recent green PR push. I think we can expect honda to push for rules breaks for a hybrid (also rumours of zytek wanting to run a hybrid).

Porsche play the rules game very well - i expect them to get some concessions from the ACO by the end of the year.

The rules do need sorting but the diesels should NOT be brought back to the level of the privateer petrols!!! That is lunacy and just asking for works petrol domination - bring the diesels back to the level of an equivalent works petrol car. THat is why i am dissapointed in porsches attitude - they could build a P1 car and hand it over to a team ala Penske in the US and comprehensively give the ACO the data they need to balance the rules!!! But no they have decided to whine

Pescarolo are a good team crying out for more budget! They have proven they can develop a decent chassis and given more money could probably develop a chassis capable of mixing it with the best (audi, pug and prob zytek).

[Purist]

I believe Porsche said they would build a P1 when they felt they had a shot to win Le Mans. I think there is VERY LITTLE in the way of a sensible argument that can be made to say that a petrol P1 has a real shot at Le Mans. Even if the petrol P1s can make the 700-750hp, they're still going to be painfully outdone in the torque department. Basically, they'd get eaten alive at Le Mans in their first attempt, with the current rules. Wouldn't Porsche be stupid to compete at Le Mans under these circuimstances? I mean, it's certainly not going to be good PR for them to get beaten in the sport's biggest race by the diesels, and what would they learn from such an attempt; they would have to re-adjust the following year for the new regulations, if new regulations were forthcoming. And hey, Porsche took their lumps for 17 seasons before they won their first Le Mans, so no one can accuse them of impatience or a lack of commitment.

Porsche's only theoretically suitable LMP1 engine currently is their 5.7-litre V10 (a flat 6 would cause issues with working in the undertray tunnels while still keeping the car's center of gravity low enough). In production trim, it is good for 612-635hp and 435ft-lbs of torque. They could up their compression some, but it's already at 12.0:1, and expanding to 6.0-litres with the same bore/stroke ratio (assuming linear progression) would give roughly 670hp and 460ft-lbs of torque. That horsepower figure is close, but that torque level would be nowhere near enough to make them competitive. Also, the diesels make their maximum power and torque at lower revs, which allows them to get into that range sooner, while probably putting less wear and tear on the engine. This is aggravated because Porsche's engines, even the V10, make their maximum power and torque much closer to their rpm redlines.

[chewymonster]

Face it, diesels will always have more torque. It compensates for less RPM. Audi's brand new A5 features many engines, two of which are a V6 diesel and a V6 gasoline engine. Audi lists 0-100 km/h acceleration for the 265 hp/243 lb-ft of torque 3.1 L gasoline V6 in 6.1 seconds. Audi lists acceleration for its 3.0 V6 TDI diesel as 5.9 seconds. It has 240 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque. Audi's gasoline powered S5 has 350 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque and has acceleration of 5.1 seconds. So you can see that the huge torque figures of diesels are certainly great (especially in everyday driving) but don't necessarily mean a direct increase in performance that equals the torque increase. Of course, comparing fuel economy figures puts the diesel way ahead.

[Purist]

Nice figures, but by the quoted numbers, the diesels have as much a 50% more torque. That is a HUGE difference, and is visually apparent on straights of any real length.

BTW, just to throw current thinking to the fan, Chernaudi said on another thread that it's been the 2006 Audi R10s running ALMS since Sebring. So, what do we REALLY know about Audi's potential pace, or the relative pace of the factory LMP2s?