[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix 2021: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 19 of 22

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Clearly his fault and how the stewards didn't even bother to look at the onboard footage IDK.

Although the onboard footage wasn't available at the time, so maybe the review should have been postponed until after the race?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Like Austria 2020? The last time a right to review was successful, new relevant information was brought forward by Red Bull and resulted in a grid drop for Hamilton.

I see no difference here, it’s a process where evidence is presented and a conclusion is reached based on that new evidence.

I never made a comparison to Austria 2020.

[chillibowl]

in fairness, i would wager that the footage and data immediately available to the stewards now is still far greater to what was immediately available to them in the past, even recent past.

and of course we all want decisions to be made right away/during the race. they could have easily waited for 'all the evidence' but then this discussion would be focused on that.

earlier this season i was lamenting the lack of immediate access to the 360degree cameras and it was pointed out that available bandwidth and transmission capabilities still prevents real time broadcasts...for me it was easy to think 'technology' is ubiquitous but clearly there is still more to achieve.

and arguably there will always be more to do, more tech needed, more for the stewards to analyze etc etc.

in a way, the absence of this instant tech/loads of footage in the past, probably goes a long way in explaining bad or incorrect decisions made in the past...perhaps suggesting that past decisions are in and of themselves limited.

anyways, i hate that i am defending the stewards!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I never made a comparison to Austria 2020.

i didnt say you did....that was my comparison

My point being it was evidence brought after qualifying happened from an outside party which resulted in a sucessful review.

[davec]

My issue on all of this is the timing. IF they said during the race that Max would be investigated AFTER the race he would "likely" have tried to stay 5 or 10 seconds in front of Bottas as that was the likely penalty. The fact that they said no investigation was necessary knowing that they had not got all the information for me is a mistake by the stewards. Max then just had to beat Bottas by any amount but now could lose second place.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by davec

My issue on all of this is the timing. IF they said during the race that Max would be investigated AFTER the race he would "likely" have tried to stay 5 or 10 seconds in front of Bottas as that was the likely penalty. The fact that they said no investigation was necessary knowing that they had not got all the information for me is a mistake by the stewards. Max then just had to beat Bottas by any amount but now could lose second place.

I agree with that. I hate to say it but I think Masi cracked under pressure here. He’s come under extraordinary scrutiny this year - I’d have run for the hills long ago in his position so I cannot imagine how difficult it is for him. But…since he didn’t have all the necessary footage at the time he should have said so and deferred a decision till after the race.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by davec

My issue on all of this is the timing. IF they said during the race that Max would be investigated AFTER the race he would "likely" have tried to stay 5 or 10 seconds in front of Bottas as that was the likely penalty. The fact that they said no investigation was necessary knowing that they had not got all the information for me is a mistake by the stewards. Max then just had to beat Bottas by any amount but now could lose second place.

indeed. thats a great point!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by davec

My issue on all of this is the timing. IF they said during the race that Max would be investigated AFTER the race he would "likely" have tried to stay 5 or 10 seconds in front of Bottas as that was the likely penalty. The fact that they said no investigation was necessary knowing that they had not got all the information for me is a mistake by the stewards. Max then just had to beat Bottas by any amount but now could lose second place.

Cant disagree with that at all.

TBH if they didnt have all of the information, it would have been sensible to say that the incident would be investigated after the race.

That way, max would have the opportunity to keep a gap to bottas, and the stewards would have an 'out' that would leave them looking semi respectable.

As it is now, if they dont allow an investigation, they are basically condoning a driver to run another off the road, completely contradicting the sporting regs and if they DO penalise Max, then youve not allowed allowed him the chance to keep a 5 second gap.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i didnt say you did....that was my comparison

My point being it was evidence brought after qualifying happened from an outside party which resulted in a sucessful review.

Does a comparison need to be made?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Does a comparison need to be made?

I thought it was relevant and as this is a discussion I brought it up. If you don’t feel that way, that’s fine also.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I thought it was relevant and as this is a discussion I brought it up. If you don’t feel that way, that’s fine also.

It's just that what happened in Austria 2020 is quite different to what happened last Sunday and that a decision could still have an effect on the result of the race, some time after the race is over. I don't like this right to review being used several days after the event to change the outcome. It's bad for the sport.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's just that what happened in Austria 2020 is quite different to what happened last Sunday and that a decision could still have an effect on the result of the race, some time after the race is over. I don't like this right to review being used several days after the event to change the outcome. It's bad for the sport.

Different and similar.

The Austria request for review happened the day after qualifying and affected the result of qualifying and the race.

The Brazil request for review happened a day after the race and could affect the result of the race.

In both incidents the right to review has the capacity to alter the result of the race after new evidence has been brought to the attention of the stewards, the only difference is the speed in which video evidence has been obtained and the availability of the stewards. That’s not Mercedes fault, so their right to review shouldn’t be affected bpurekt because of timing.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Different and similar.

The Austria incident happened the day after qualifying and affected the result of qualifying and the race.

The Brazil incident happened a day after the race and could affect the result of the race.

In both incidents the right to review has the capacity to alter the result of the race after new evidence has been brought to the attention of the stewards.

However, the decision still hasn't been made and with three races to go, this could have a direct effect on the WDC and WCC.

It does have the capacity to alter the result of the race, several days after it's over and I don't that is a direction F1 should be going. It's bad for the sport.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

However, the decision still hasn't been made and with three races to go, this could have a direct effect on the WDC and WCC.

It does have the capacity to alter the result of the race, several days after it's over and I don't that is a direction F1 should be going. It's bad for the sport.

It hasn’t, but it will be shortly, time shouldn’t be the defining factor, the correct result should be. Surely you’d agree that the correct result based on full evidence is important, not a rushed decision?

Austria 2020 had a direct effect on the WDC and WCC too….just not in a tight fight.

What is bad for the sport, is drivers being able to get away with bad driving. The likes of Leclerc have already said they will adjust their driving based on the result of the investigation, Max has said he will do the same again, so the lack of intervention and full investigation is already having an effect on the result of the championship

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by davec

My issue on all of this is the timing. IF they said during the race that Max would be investigated AFTER the race he would "likely" have tried to stay 5 or 10 seconds in front of Bottas as that was the likely penalty. The fact that they said no investigation was necessary knowing that they had not got all the information for me is a mistake by the stewards. Max then just had to beat Bottas by any amount but now could lose second place.

Yes it does seem a bit unfair on Max, even if he bought any potential penalty onto himself. But then again it was Christian Horner who felt Lewis’ penalty at Silverstone wasn’t enough because he still won, so maybe he should remember that if Max loses his second place

[crmalcolm]

FIA delays decision on Verstappen-Hamilton incident until Friday

“Following today’s hearing with representatives from Mercedes and Red Bull, the stewards are now considering the matter and will publish their decision tomorrow,” said an FIA spokesperson.

[porsche962fan]

so they need time to find excuses to sweep it under the carpet ! quelle surprise

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

It hasn’t, but it will be shortly, time shouldn’t be the defining factor, the correct result should be. Surely you’d agree that the correct result based on full evidence is important, not a rushed decision?

Austria 2020 had a direct effect on the WDC and WCC too….just not in a tight fight.

What is bad for the sport, is drivers being able to get away with bad driving. The likes of Leclerc have already said they will adjust their driving based on the result of the investigation, Max has said he will do the same again, so the lack of intervention and full investigation is already having an effect on the result of the championship

Verstappen's retirement had more of a direct effect on the WDC and WCC at Austria, than the decision regarding Hamilton. It sure wasn't the outcome Red Bull were hoping for, after their challenge to the decision led to Hamilton's grid penalty.

Absolutely and of course one wants to see all the evidence and the correct result and I totally agree with you about drivers getting away with bad driving being bad for the sport; I read what Leclerc said.

However, this isn't purely about driving standards but about using the rules to penalise a rival team to gain an advantage, like Austria 2020. I was dismayed when Toto Wolff said diplomacy was over. Is this what we can expect from F1 in the future, teams deliberately using the rules at every opportunity, in order to penalise each other?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Verstappen's retirement had more of a direct effect on the WDC and WCC at Austria, than the decision regarding Hamilton. It sure wasn't the outcome Red Bull were hoping for, after their challenge to the decision led to Hamilton's grid penalty.

Absolutely and of course one wants to see all the evidence and the correct result and I totally agree with you about drivers getting away with bad driving being bad for the sport; I read what Leclerc said.

However, this isn't purely about driving standards but about using the rules to penalise a rival team to gain an advantage, like Austria 2020. I was dismayed when Toto Wolff said diplomacy was over. Is this what we can expect from F1 in the future, teams deliberately using the rules at every opportunity, in order to penalise each other?

Is this what we can expect from f1 in the future? This has been happening in F1 for decades, but usually behind closed doors. It’s nothing unusual and ‘part of the game’ as Horner put it last weekend.

Maybe we should just return to ignorant bliss before radio messages were broadcast and Bernie was running the show like a bunch of puppets.

[steve_r]

The Brazilian GP and the penalties (or not) is turning into the finale of a naff talent show.

And the penalty is..
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Find out after the break....

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Is this what we can expect from f1 in the future? This has been happening in F1 for decades, but usually behind closed doors. It’s nothing unusual and ‘part of the game’ as Horner put it last weekend.

Maybe we should just return to ignorant bliss before radio messages were broadcast and Bernie was running the show like a bunch of puppets.

I don't remember it being quite like this. If it was behind closed doors, F1 could at least hide its dirty linen. Anyway Horner better hope that in playing the game none of this comes back to bite him.

Yes, the end of radio messages and just pit boards.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't remember it being quite like this. If it was behind closed doors, F1 could at least hide its dirty linen. Anyway Horner better hope that in playing the game none of this comes back to bite him.

Yes, the end of radio messages and just pit boards.

Yups….and get rid of bloody Amazon too! The less I know about the race, the more I follow it and the more suspense

[EastonNeston]

Perhaps Verstappen shoukd not break the rules, then we wouldn't have this controversy.


The correct decision from the stewards would be to give Verstappen the maximum available penalty for his deliberate, and dangerous, actions in Brazil.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Perhaps Verstappen shoukd not break the rules, then we wouldn't have this controversy.


The correct decision from the stewards would be to give Verstappen the maximum available penalty for his deliberate, and dangerous, actions in Brazil.

Woah there tiger.

Firstly, in Max’s defence he hasn’t been found to have broken any rules yet. Let’s wait to see if the stewards decide that.

Secondly, the maximum penalty? Sure it looked a bit dirty, but anything more than a 10 second penalty or 5 place grid drop would be extreme. The maximum penalty would be a DSQ or race ban…that would be ludicrous

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

so they need time to find excuses to sweep it under the carpet ! quelle surprise

Why would they need time to dismiss it (if that is what they will end up doing).

If you subscribe to the theory, then all they have to do is issue a statement along the lines of:

"In accordance with article 14 ISC, this hearing was convened to determine whether the Right of Review exists in this case, i.e. whether ‘a significant and relevant new element is discovered which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.'
Having considered the evidence presented, in the form of onboard footage from Car 33, the Stewards have deemed that the this meets the criteria of relevant and new. The Stewards have deemed that this evidence is not significant however, and so the Right of Review is not upheld"