IMSA DPi Discussion

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I think 600hp has been the target from the start.

Sure I know this, but mere power is just a part of the equation. The real question is: how can a N/A engine be able to develope 600hp and have a 50h lifetime before rebuild as planned?

in theory you can get 600hp also from a fiat panda 750cc, if you can make it rev up to 20000rpm... little problem is that after 10 minutes the engine becomes a granade...

To obtain a powerfull and so reliable N/A engine, usually is required a very large displacement to let the engine rev as low as possible while a huge amount of torque is released in the meanwhile. Basically more or less how the LS7R of C6R GT1 used to work = 7L, 600hp reached at 5500rpm, >800Nm for the whole rpm range, revlimit under 6000rpm.

Now, the issue is that according to rumors the gibson engine will be just about 4L-4.2L.
Well, need to say that 458 speciale and 918 spyder engines (4.5L for both) are able to reach 610-620hp, but that power is reached over 9000rpm, that is great for a high performance road car, but not a big deal for a racing engine that should last 50 hours!!! Basically a fresh engine would require just 2 rebuild for a whole WEC season.
That's why I'm so skeptical about this kind of engine. Anyway if gibson will be able to do it for real, and powerfull and reliable as they claimed... well good for them and my bad.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

*Dragonspeed - Oreca-Nissan - possible (partial probably)

After Sebring they said they don't want to come back because of BoP issues.

*D-Wing - not to feature but might just be grandfathered after all???

You don't believe in Don's ability to swing his magic wand and request the thing eligible for all eternity if he so wishes? The only reason the car seems to be on this "year at the time" eligibility confirming state is because they also have that proposed illegal "GT" project on the backburner too, but can't decide when to roll it out, if ever.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Here's a try to break down the possible DPi and prototype entry as things stands now:

DPi
*Cadillac - GM + Dallara
Action Express 2 cars - almost confirmed
WTR 1 car? (leased from AE?) - likely
SoD 1 car?? (leased from AE?) - possible
2-4 cars

*Mazda + Riley Multimatic
Speedscource 2 cars - almost confirmed
SoD 1 car?? - possible
Starworks 1 car?? - possible

Other OEM:
*Honda/Acura/HPD - possible for 2017, more likely for 2018, OAK and Shank seem to be the obvious choices as constructor and entrant but no official clues at this point, 2017 could very well turn out to be a 'bridge' year before an official DPi entry in 2018.
*VAG? (Bentley? Audi?? Lambo???) - possible (50/50 at best). Dallara seems another obvious constructor choice in case things move forward.
*Nissan? - possible (50/50 at best again). Apparently a home for the former P1 engine needs to be found. OAK or Oreca as choice of constructor?
*Alfa Romeo??? - sounds more like a fairytale tbh.
*BMW??? - Rahal has expressed interest in proto participation before but so far nothing more than 'interest shown'. Unlikely.

2017 'general' P2
*Starworks - Riley Multimatic + Gibson - car purchase confirmed, program TBA (might turn into a Mazda DPi)

Current P2 coupes to be grandfathered
*Shank - Ligier/HPD - likely. A continuation of the current program with either the current car or HPD 'one hit wonder' somehow seems more likely than a DPi entry in 2017.
*Dragonspeed - Oreca-Nissan - possible (partial probably)
*ESM - Ligier-Nissan - see Dragonspeed
*Krohn - Ligier-Nissan - possible at best (partial probably)

Others
*D-Wing - not to feature but might just be grandfathered after all???.
*Alegra - not a clue, grandfathering of current DP's might offer best potential.
*Highway to Help - see Alegra.

Anything else will be left side imo.

I think that is a pretty good assessment based on current conditions. Would be great to get a surprise team in there for the full season but I'm not hopeful. I am expecting teams (on both sides of the pond) to struggle getting their new cars delivered on time, so I'm not even expecting extra cars for Daytona/Sebring.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Here's a try to break down the possible DPi and prototype entry as things stands now:

DPi
*Cadillac - GM + Dallara
Action Express 2 cars - almost confirmed
WTR 1 car? (leased from AE?) - likely
SoD 1 car?? (leased from AE?) - possible
2-4 cars

*Mazda + Riley Multimatic
Speedscource 2 cars - almost confirmed
SoD 1 car?? - possible
Starworks 1 car?? - possible

Other OEM:
*Honda/Acura/HPD - possible for 2017, more likely for 2018, OAK and Shank seem to be the obvious choices as constructor and entrant but no official clues at this point, 2017 could very well turn out to be a 'bridge' year before an official DPi entry in 2018.
*VAG? (Bentley? Audi?? Lambo???) - possible (50/50 at best). Dallara seems another obvious constructor choice in case things move forward.
*Nissan? - possible (50/50 at best again). Apparently a home for the former P1 engine needs to be found. OAK or Oreca as choice of constructor?
*Alfa Romeo??? - sounds more like a fairytale tbh.
*BMW??? - Rahal has expressed interest in proto participation before but so far nothing more than 'interest shown'. Unlikely.

2017 'general' P2
*Starworks - Riley Multimatic + Gibson - car purchase confirmed, program TBA (might turn into a Mazda DPi)

Current P2 coupes to be grandfathered
*Shank - Ligier/HPD - likely. A continuation of the current program with either the current car or HPD 'one hit wonder' somehow seems more likely than a DPi entry in 2017.
*Dragonspeed - Oreca-Nissan - possible (partial probably)
*ESM - Ligier-Nissan - see Dragonspeed
*Krohn - Ligier-Nissan - possible at best (partial probably)

Others
*D-Wing - not to feature but might just be grandfathered after all???.
*Alegra - not a clue, grandfathering of current DP's might offer best potential.
*Highway to Help - see Alegra.

Anything else will be left side imo.

Excellent summary Coach, I'd add in a possible HPD ARX-04b lent to a PC team or maybe Alega.
Other possibility for Alegra is a generic new P2 or a 2016 P2 out of Europe.

Agree - I don't see much else.

Mariantic

[carbon_titanium]

don't know how much serious will be the mazda involvment, but surely they need a better engine (that surely is an updated version of the old AER designed L4 used for years by dyson). It can't compete against the 5.5 of the corvette DP, and even worst if next year GM will use the 3.6 twin turbo of the cadillac GT3

[Matt]

Yes it can.

...and it did at Daytona this year.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

don't know how much serious will be the mazda involvment, but surely they need a better engine (that surely is an updated version of the old AER designed L4 used for years by dyson). It can't compete against the 5.5 of the corvette DP, and even worst if next year GM will use the 3.6 twin turbo of the cadillac GT3

The current Mazda engine isn't related to the AER that was used by Dyson.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

The current Mazda engine isn't related to the AER that was used by Dyson.

I wonder if Dyson is planning a play back into the series? It would make sense for them to be the second Mazda team seeing they own AER and have had strong ties to Riley, Lola, and Mazda in the past. Beyond that, they are not doing anything at the moment.

[Maelochs]

As for Mazda .... with a chassis equivalent with the rest of the field's and an engine which powered them to the front of the pack at Daytona, and also as mentioned, a powerful driver line-up (particularly Ms. Keiko Ihara) they could turn out to be a serious contender in any event.

I would love to see Dyson back and Mazda would no doubt love to sell some cars. I haven't heard any rumors other than this one, though ....

The car/team breakdown doesn't seem to have changed much since Marshall prett's Racer article (http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...ply-and-demand) ... we realistically could see fewer than half-a-dozen prototypes in 2017.

As for the Gibson engine: I don't see why a bespoke blank-sheet racing engine couldn't be designed and built to deliver 600 reliable bhp. People have being building ICEs for quite a while now, and an engine designed for a very specific application with a minimum of compromises needed, could quite possibly pull it off, i'd imagine. particularly since there is no mention of fuel economy or anything like that. We shall see.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Question, and please don't flame me too hard if I don't know what the heck I am talking about:

Did NASCAR own the Action Express team? If so do they still?

I'm not terribly interested in the new formula for the time being, so I don't remember exactly what was written, was it something about Action Express and four new chassis to run a Cadillac branded DPi? Because if that's the case wouldn't there be some conflict of interest there?

Again, sorry if these are all dumb or mis-informed questions.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

Did NASCAR own the Action Express team? If so do they still?

My understanding is that your understanding is correct.

Action express has a pair of championships under its belt ... a belt bought and paid for by the series owner.

I don't think, besides the humor factor, that much can be made of this.

We will see whether WeatherTech/AJR wins GTD this year.

[carbsmith]

Does NASCAR own the team directly? No. The majority owner is an accountant that does work for NASCAR, but the team was started with Jim France, who is one of the few Frances that actually has official ownership in NASCAR and runs IMSA. (apparently at the time to give JC France a ride) He was also responsible for WTR getting Suntrust sponsorship by being on their board of directors, among other things. I'm sure the France family is involved in the Visit Florida tourism promotion too, what with them advertising at Road Atlanta and everything. That's just sort of how things are done with GARRA/IMSA.

It wouldn't be any different than the Corvette DP anyways. It was Jim France who went to Chevrolet and asked them to race a Corvette in Grand-Am and Grand-Am helped develop the car.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Okay, well in that case. Just say for a minute that you're a CEO of a major car manufacturer. Why on earth would you want to run a prototype in IMSA???!!! You're at a disadvantage before the flag drops, before qualifying, before the cars roll off the transporter. And even if there was somehow, someway to make sure that everything was equal, fair, done above board, I'd always wonder if it weren't, or if it could change at any moment. This is ridiculous that there would be any connection between the owners of the series and one of the teams. IMHO it just makes the entire thing suspect and bordering on being a sham.

I mean Bud Selig being an owner of the Milwaukee Brewers and the commissioner of baseball is bad enough. But he couldn't change the rules to the game or the equipment his team uses to specifically benefit his team. Meanwhile Action Express and NASCAR can do exactly that.

I guess I'm just late to the outrage I should have had from the beginning. Just with a new formula starting it seems like a perfect opportunity to put an end to this kind of nonsense.

And yes, I'd rather have four less prototypes on the grid if it meant having a fair class with no direct outside influence.

[BullMan]

Action Express showed up to their first race ever at Daytona 24 and won. Whoops. SoD is also a house car in some respect.

[Rcz]

I don't think the old p2 cars will have a 150hp deficit in IMSA. They going to need as many as they can get! Now the WEC is another matter...

Yeah, I think the Gibsons will have more of a supply problem. It's possible the engines might be unreliable but I'll guess know sooner or a later.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

Okay, well in that case. Just say for a minute that you're a CEO of a major car manufacturer. Why on earth would you want to run a prototype in IMSA???!!! You're at a disadvantage before the flag drops, before qualifying, before the cars roll off the transporter. And even if there was somehow, someway to make sure that everything was equal, fair, done above board, I'd always wonder if it weren't, or if it could change at any moment. This is ridiculous that there would be any connection between the owners of the series and one of the teams. IMHO it just makes the entire thing suspect and bordering on being a sham.

Just wondering: Did you feel the same way about the Panoz LMP1s in ALMS?!

[TF110]

They ran to the rules at least. Don't know if the panoz lmp1 got help from the series just because it was entered by Don. If it did, they didn't often beat Audi

[Accident]

Originally Posted by TF110

They ran to the rules at least.

Are you implying AXR don't?

[Maelochs]

I don't see where AXR got any breaks, or WTR, or SoD ... besides the rules being bent in favor of DPs in general.

Also, four fewer cars on the grid might be about the whole DPi grid. Mazda would be the only starters and so long as they could finish, would win every race.

I know it looks odd, but Grand Am was always heavily subsidized by NASCAR. I don't know to what degree IMSA currently is, but I appreciate whatever investment and whatever management help. I really can't see where NASCAR cheated to help its teams (Telmex-Ganassi won about all the championships) and I don't see where they are cheating now.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I don't see where AXR got any breaks, or WTR, or SoD ... besides the rules being bent in favor of DPs in general.

Also, four fewer cars on the grid might be about the whole DPi grid. Mazda would be the only starters and so long as they could finish, would win every race.

I know it looks odd, but Grand Am was always heavily subsidized by NASCAR. I don't know to what degree IMSA currently is, but I appreciate whatever investment and whatever management help. I really can't see where NASCAR cheated to help its teams (Telmex-Ganassi won about all the championships) and I don't see where they are cheating now.

But this does not fit the narrative of the series being corrupt with clandestine teams RULING the roost!








L.P.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

They ran to the rules at least. Don't know if the panoz lmp1 got help from the series just because it was entered by Don. If it did, they didn't often beat Audi

But that's changed now, all because of who owns the car. The current prototype they run doesn't fit the rules, but they continue to allow it as part of the merger. Meanwhile the SCG can't enter because it doesn't have any road cars. Bit like a Ford GT or that hideous Panoz GT thing but Jim can't afford to bribe IMSA or be lucky enough to own the series to get his car in.

This series just loves cars that don't fit the rules and always has done. Just got to be owned by the right person.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by ATLFalconsFAN

And yes, I'd rather have four less prototypes on the grid if it meant having a fair class with no direct outside influence.

Even if they (and Panoz) weren't there, there's always gonna be direct outside influence in performance balanced competition, particularly if practiced the way they've chosen here.

[DeezPutz]

What makes this thread so wonderful is the complete detachment from reality.

It's a real hoot!

[Deleted]

If we had complete detachment from reality we would be talking on how the great Corvette and Ford Prototype race cars managed to completely destroy all other opposition in the last couple of years due to vast development and engineering skills that will improve the road cars tech-transfer in the coming years, with the aid of those amazing Continental Tires as the nice lady on the telly told us.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Just wondering: Did you feel the same way about the Panoz LMP1s in ALMS?!

Panoz didn't race exclusively in his own series nor did he have any mechanism for changing (or creating) the rules for his own cars. Now if the Panoz had been an Atlanta Prototype that was designed before the rule book and was subject to BoP adjustments every other race, that would be a bit different.

Abruzzi and DeltaWing are crap though, but luckily that applies in both a conceptual and descriptive sense.