The Current State of IndyCar

[bjohnsonsmith]

I don't know if anyone has seen this series of articles about IndyCar and the changes to come in 2018. There are interviews from drivers past and present and many others who have been and are involved in IndyCar. There's a lot to read but I'm going to plough my way through it.

The first interview is with Mario Andretti.

http://www.racer.com/indycar/item/11...mario-andretti

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There isn't a thread that specifically addresses the technical regs of IndyCar. This thread will do because of it's general nature but if you want to start a specific thread by all means.

Yeah, I just didn't think it really deserved a thread of it's own. Mostly me dreaming about how great Indycar could be with open regs!

[D.R.T.]

There are some great articles in that series from Power, Randy Bernard, Bobby Unser

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think Indycar needs to have if not a beautiful car out there then a mean and terrifying one. I they need to be cocky and confident and even if there's giggles initially from some quarters - even if it's a fiction - they need say 'we're better than NASCAR and F1' and believe it. Noone watches a series resigned to the middle rank. Noone outside of the circle of the dedicated fan anyway.

In hindsight, IndyCar really should have gone for a ruleset like LMP2. Where they say: Build anything you want, as long as it doesn't cost something like 400-500k. It works well for LMP2 and I fail to see how that couldn't have worked for Indy. Yes, you can run LMP2 in more than one series, but the class is running more or less well in every eligible series (I can definitely say that for sure about ELMS). But yeah, anything is better than the current Dallara package, aerokits or not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by DS"

In hindsight, IndyCar really should have gone for a ruleset like LMP2. Where they say: Build anything you want, as long as it doesn't cost something like 400-500k. It works well for LMP2 and I fail to see how that couldn't have worked for Indy. Yes, you can run LMP2 in more than one series, but the class is running more or less well in every eligible series (I can definitely say that for sure about ELMS). But yeah, anything is better than the current Dallara package, aerokits or not.

The argument given for continuing with a single constructor was cost, due to the economic climate at the time post the banking crisis. Some constructors felt that if the formula were open to competition, they wouldn't be able to recoup their costs on chassis development and manufacturing, without ramping up the price and passing the cost on to the teams.

In the CART days this wasn't an issue as tobacco money was rife and sponsors were quite happy to spend large amounts of money, in order to cover the team's costs, which is why at one point there were multiple chassis and engine manufacturers. However, as we all know this wasn't sustainable in the long term.

I follow the WEC etc., to a certain extent but what I would like to know is, how do LMP2 constructors and teams manage to keep their heads above water, when there's competition in such a limited and specialised field?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Quite an interesting article on whether IndyCar can be an affordable option to Formula 1.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118188

[Salamus]

One step at a time. They've made some positive steps in the past few years.

First, they should expand in North America, South America, and Australia before trying Europe again.

No matter what IndyCar does, I hope they keep a 50/50 or 40/60 split between ovals and road courses.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

One step at a time. They've made some positive steps in the past few years.

First, they should expand in North America, South America, and Australia before trying Europe again.

No matter what IndyCar does, I hope they keep a 50/50 or 40/60 split between ovals and road courses.

They do need to expand in North America with at least another race in Canada. South America is such an obvious market but it seems Brazil isn't quite as forth coming as one might have thought; Indyar should also look to Colombia and possibly Argentina. If they could manage to expand outside of North America, there would be no need for such a tightly packed schedule and Mark Miles's fear of clashing with the NFL.

This season there are 15 venues, six of which are ovals, though I would like to have seen Fontana, Milwaukee and Iowa not follow each other in such quick succession but then again, they are quite different tracks.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Is IndyCar out of the wilderness?

This is worth a read.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...898.1424698622

[Paradise City]

They need to be a little arrogant and to look at F1's turf and say "yeah, I want some of that". That's a great declaration of intent.

Whatever about the practicalities of what Miles is saying, I do like the attitude.

[JacobP]

If you look at touring cars, you realize that what makes the best touring car series truly special (and by those, I mean BTCC and Aussie V8 supercars) are the unique race tracks that result in some amazing close racing, paint swapping, cars on two wheels, cars flying, and all that. What IndyCar needs is to do to differentiate itself from F1 and other sports is to take take advantage of the existing racetracks available in North America. And by that, I don't mean racing just on the ovals.

IndyCar should race on venues that get people truly excited. The venues so cool that people want to travel hundreds of miles to get there, so cool that even racing fans from abroad start paying attention. As I watch TUSCC sports car races on Road America and Laguna Seca, I always wonder, why isn't IndyCar racing there? Another cool track is VIR, specially in its quasi-oval configuration as used right now in TUSCC racing.


Another issue is the chassis. A lot of open wheel purists are calling for F1 to return to racing with cars having very powerful engines and very little or no downforce (so basically with tiny wings, or no wings). With this design, there is no need for DRS or push to pass tech for making frequent overtaking feasible. While F1 will not have any of that, why can't IndyCar try some of those ideas, specially after watching the last race where the fancy aero parts were literally falling off from any contact and caused most of safety cars?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by JacobP

If you look at touring cars, you realize that what makes the best touring car series truly special (and by those, I mean BTCC and Aussie V8 supercars) are the unique race tracks that result in some amazing close racing, paint swapping, cars on two wheels, cars flying, and all that. What IndyCar needs is to do to differentiate itself from F1 and other sports is to take take advantage of the existing racetracks available in North America. And by that, I don't mean racing just on the ovals.

IndyCar should race on venues that get people truly excited. The venues so cool that people want to travel hundreds of miles to get there, so cool that even racing fans from abroad start paying attention. As I watch TUSCC sports car races on Road America and Laguna Seca, I always wonder, why isn't IndyCar racing there? Another cool track is VIR, specially in its quasi-oval configuration as used right now in TUSCC racing.


Another issue is the chassis. A lot of open wheel purists are calling for F1 to return to racing with cars having very powerful engines and very little or no downforce (so basically with tiny wings, or no wings). With this design, there is no need for DRS or push to pass tech for making frequent overtaking feasible. While F1 will not have any of that, why can't IndyCar try some of those ideas, specially after watching the last race where the fancy aero parts were literally falling off from any contact and caused most of safety cars?

There's commercial realities to going to some of these plumb tracks that we don't have to shoulder and they do. I agree with your second paragraph. These forests of winglets should be cut down.

[August]

I've always though IndyCar should rather go to South America and Asia-Pacific. But if there are starting to be more big countries than Germany, e.g. Italy, abandoned by F1, I think IndyCar would have a great chance to expand there.

Really like JacobP's suggestion of powerful engines and little downforce. But now that they intruduced the new aerokits, I'm not seeing that soon. Surely they don't want another major rule change soon, it's always costly. Which is a pity, I'm not sure the aerokits are really such a great thing.

[JacobP]

Formula 1 has been losing TV ratings and probably fans recently. I don't know if it's a permanent trend or just a reaction to the snooze-fest that was the 2013 season, concluding four long years of continuous Red Bull and Vettel domination. But if the trend is permanent, I don't think that F1 refugees have IndyCar on their radars right now.

I'd dare to say that Formula E has already leapfrogged IndyCar in popularity. Just look at the drivers and the team managers, and you see who-is-who of the open wheel racing. There are lots of drivers from the European openwheel racing ladder, some with quite a bit of F1 seat time. The tickets sell well, the venues look beautiful, and on-track action has been quite good. How did they get things so right from the get go? What would it take for IndyCar to bring drivers like Alguersuari, Buemi, or Heidfeld into IndyCar seats, as well as some juniors from GP2? Do these Europeans have some anti-American bias, or they think IndyCar is mostly old school racing on the ovals?

[Damian Baldi]

When time ago, I heard about aero kits, I thought that teams will build a new aero car around the cockpit tube, with new side pods, nose etc etc. What I saw in this first race is very poor, limited and it looks like the worst car I ever seen.

[JacobP]

On the bright side of the aero kit adoption, we're going to see some competition in the hardware area. There are probably some people inside Chevy and Honda who are thinking right now that maybe they should dial down the aero part in order to make the wings more survivable.

[Paradise City]

Formula E is an unprecedented concept riding on a futuristic wave that draws in innovate business and generates attention that way.

FE races in these city centres, so drawing people is intuitive. Indycar does well in the city too. But FE would be miles too slow on ovals and ovals don't seem to draw the crowds for Indycar. And ovals are part of the magic of Indycar - doing without them would make it indistingushable to any other series - bar the 500.

I don't know audience figures in GB for FE but ITV4 is off the reservation. It's unlikely they get that many viewers. What they get on Fox, I dunno. More than Indycar probably but not by that much ? - and if the time zones are tough for the Americans, that will cut into their viewers.

I do think Indycar has something to learn from FE. An innovative, futuristic aspect well publicised but without falling into gimmickery would do it. But given all the spend that has gone into these winglet mushroom fields on wheels, it's gonna be a long way off, even presuming they have something in mind.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Formula 1 has been losing TV ratings and probably fans recently. I don't know if it's a permanent trend or just a reaction to the snooze-fest that was the 2013 season, concluding four long years of continuous Red Bull and Vettel domination. But if the trend is permanent, I don't think that F1 refugees have IndyCar on their radars right now.

The reason Formula 1 is losing it's ratings is due to much of it being aired on pay to view. Over here, the BBC who used to show the whole season, now only show half of the races. Sky, which is owned by Rupert Murdoch, shows the entire season. If you're a die hard fan, you might not mind shelling out the extra £s to watch the F1 channel. On the other hand you could be a die hard fan and resent having to pay to view, so you'll look for an online feed. As a casual fan that extra cost, on top of your existing Sky package, might be a complete turn off and you'll put up with the BBC.

Originally Posted by JacobP

I'd dare to say that Formula E has already leapfrogged IndyCar in popularity. Just look at the drivers and the team managers, and you see who-is-who of the open wheel racing. There are lots of drivers from the European openwheel racing ladder, some with quite a bit of F1 seat time. The tickets sell well, the venues look beautiful, and on-track action has been quite good. How did they get things so right from the get go? What would it take for IndyCar to bring drivers like Alguersuari, Buemi, or Heidfeld into IndyCar seats, as well as some juniors from GP2? Do these Europeans have some anti-American bias, or they think IndyCar is mostly old school racing on the ovals?

If anyone has any viewing figures comparing IndyCar and FE, that would be interesting.

I think one reason why it seems they've got things right from the get go, is the overall costs, including start up, running the season and the cost to the teams must be considerably less than IndyCar. The cost of the car is €350,000, which is £381500, though I'm not sure if that includes the powertrain, batteries and Renault's system integration, as the Spark website didn't have that information.

The price of a DW12, is intially $345,000 per chassis but the purchase of aerodynamic packages and I don't mean aero-kits, designed for different circuits, road/street-short oval can add another $150,000-$200,000 the engines are $2m a piece. I got these figures from, http://motorsportstalk.nbcsports.com...ar-comparison/ but this was published in May 2013, so I don't know how accurate these figures are but even so, the figures alone suggest the costs in IndyCar are considerably more than FE, which is why IndyCar and F1 resort to hiring pay drivers. I don't know if the Alguersuaris, Buemis, or Heidfelds can bring that sort of money to IndyCar.

[wdave0]

Two major differences - FEs look worlds better and sound worlds worse than the Indys. Which counts more?

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by wdave0

Two major differences - FEs look worlds better and sound worlds worse than the Indys. Which counts more?

FEs are hideous.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

FEs are hideous.

That,


or that.


The choice is yours.

[Paradise City]

The Indycar is better looking than the horrific looking Formula E of course although that doesn't mean much.

But I think Formula E are going to multichassis formulae in the future aren't they?

Meanwhile Indycar has the same plodding conversation about who's going to be the "sole supplier" for 2018. zzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That,

This please.

But let's be real, almost all open-wheel cars have been painful to the eye for a good 10 years now if not more.

[bjohnsonsmith]

In the aftermath of Indy Grand Prix of Louisiana, this article in Racer.com, http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...deserve-better, says a lot about the current state of IndyCar.

[mountainstar]

Like I predicted back in May 2014 on here, the NOLA race was doomed to be a dud. Didn't Brazil get canceled earlier this year as well?

The series has long been and continues to be in denial that at the core it is rotten and it's no longer an entertaining attraction to the general public. Especially with the randy bernard regime and beyond they continue to throw all these oddball goofball ideas out there like racing in the middle of a swamp at a track out in the middle of nowhere while completely refusing to look in the mirror at themselves. This isn't the case of a series like Nascar back in the 1990's and 2000's seeking out new markets because there was a demand for the product. This is a case of a series that abandoned their core market and audience and thinks there is still great demand out there for it and hence can run races in the most obscure locations possible or has to do so out of desperation.

Also as they circle the drain I think they need to give up the sanctioning fee model. This series tries to command stadium rock star fees when it is just a garage band playing local bars. Promoters can't make money with this series which is why it continues on a path of a rapidly tightening schedule.