FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thanks Stuart. There was dialogue between some teams and scrutineers at Barcelona two weeks ago concerning air boxes, but I’m not sure of the outcome. Am now endeavouring to get the full picture.......

I think the problem for the 2litre sports cars lays with the FIA themselves, in period The World Championship for makes and a seperate 2litre Championship, with a seperate set of rules, particualy for 1972, cockpits open. full width windscreens, headlights etc. but not for the 2litre Martini. this presents just as did in period a problem in that most of these cars were run by private teams, and are expensive to run, more rules will force owners away, as it did in period.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by p261brm

I think the problem for the 2litre sports cars lays with the FIA themselves, in period The World Championship for makes and a seperate 2litre Championship, with a seperate set of rules, particualy for 1972, cockpits open. full width windscreens, headlights etc. but not for the 2litre Martini. this presents just as did in period a problem in that most of these cars were run by private teams, and are expensive to run, more rules will force owners away, as it did in period.

The problem does not come from FIA, the problem comes from the paddock here and scrutineers it would appear. A car if accepted with an airbox on its HTP will be allowed to use it as the specification approved is valid as a whole.

But you cannot cherry pick bits and bobs from one specification and mix it with another, it's all about running a car today as one that ran in period. Additionally, the European Championship did not run to different rules than the Appendix J in period, WSC or 2L European Championship were the same.

Assymmetric and symmetric cockpit/rops were a ruling update from 1972 onwards and applicable across the whole scope of sport prototype racing and classified as Group 5 from then. Already announced in 1971 in Appendix J in fact. Delays were given it is known to certain manufacturers to update their design and as an example with the Lola T290.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by p261brm

I think the problem for the 2litre sports cars lays with the FIA themselves, in period The World Championship for makes and a seperate 2litre Championship, with a seperate set of rules, particualy for 1972, cockpits open. full width windscreens, headlights etc. but not for the 2litre Martini. this presents just as did in period a problem in that most of these cars were run by private teams, and are expensive to run, more rules will force owners away, as it did in period.

Weren't they called sports prototypes, e.g. they were prototypes and not production cars so the teams could modify them in any way they wanted, as long as the car still met the rules (usually only covering dimensions and capacities).
Of course doing similar things but with current knowledge would make them quicker but does not reflect what happened in period.
So the problem is how do you establish what modifications are of a type done in period.

[Simon P]

Originally Posted by Duddha

The problem does not come from FIA, the problem comes from the paddock here and scrutineers it would appear. A car if accepted with an airbox on its HTP will be allowed to use it as the specification approved is valid as a whole.

But you cannot cherry pick bits and bobs from one specification and mix it with another, it's all about running a car today as one that ran in period. Additionally, the European Championship did not run to different rules than the Appendix J in period, WSC or 2L European Championship were the same.

Assymmetric and symmetric cockpit/rops were a ruling update from 1972 onwards and applicable across the whole scope of sport prototype racing and classified as Group 5 from then. Already announced in 1971 in Appendix J in fact. Delays were given it is known to certain manufacturers to update their design and as an example with the Lola T290.

Hi Louis, regarding the above mentioned point with air boxes etc, in Barcelona we ran a B19 with an air box, we have been told if we want to continue racing with an air box, it needs to be on the HTP for Spa next month.

I would like the option to run an air box and race in the same specification to our competitor's B19's.

My issue: We found the MSA will not grant papers for a B19 with headlights (required for Peter Auto events) and an air box in period G-
"07.07.17 We are not interested in what might be required for whatever series. An HTP can only be issued for a car exactly as it was in period - or a precise copy of such a car. If non period specification parts are needed for a series today then those parts must be fitted after a correct HTP has been obtained.
So, please fit the appropriate bodywork, remove all remaining airbox components and we can process this."

At the time we didn't want to dispute, so accepted the expense to have a spare nose painted (without headlights), removed the air box system, and finally the HTP was issued.

To resolve the Scrutineering/Air box issue; would you advise to:
-Re-submit HTP papers to the MSA with updated photos?
-Dispute the PA's scrutineer- Henri Pluton's decision?
...or is there an appeal system to protest every period G B19 in Europe running an air box?

If the HTP avenue has to be taken, could you clarify about headlights - I understand in 1971's appendix J Art. 270. allows the mounting of head lights. (I can't see how 5-3/4" headlamps are not period correct)

Thanks

[zefarelly]

How can you have an FIA series running its own regulations?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

How can you have an FIA series running its own regulations?

If you’re talking about headlamps, it is a PA regulation in CER1 & CER2 that prototypes race with headlamps on, to make them more obvious to slower (not always ) GT cars. So the only option (according to MSUK) is to get HTP papers without, then fit......

[p261brm]

Boy oh boy what a hornets nest, searching through a large collection of 1971 photo's (my own) I can not find any airbox fitted to a Chevron B19.
From memory, they were fitted 1972, first seen I think, at the European 2 litre, Silverstone 17/18th June, research continuing, obtainable from John Lepp, (Mirfield Garage entered) as they had the moulds made at Specialised Mouldings. I have one Photo of Juncadella in a Red Rose Tergal B21 at Barcelona, the airbox very prominent, most photos the driver obscures the air box.
Headlights had to be fitted for 1972 for World Championship for Makes for any sports car competing, but not for European Championship for up to 2 litre cars. Chevron supplied some nacelles to fitted on the outside, I turned them round and fitted then inside (Spa 1000Kms) Tony Galland did the same but made his square, as became the standard Chevron.

[zefarelly]

It was a general question, nothing to do with specific detail or any car

I have no affinity or specific interest in any one series, but those who purport to be FIA but with series regulations which clearly contravene certain aspects are hypocrites, Masters of their own little universe, and they do it only for business reasons, nothing to do with history, preservation of cars, or even sport. Just money.

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

If you’re talking about headlamps, it is a PA regulation in CER1 & CER2 that prototypes race with headlamps on, to make them more obvious to slower (not always ) GT cars. So the only option (according to MSUK) is to get HTP papers without, then fit......

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Simon P

Hi Louis, regarding the above mentioned point with air boxes etc, in Barcelona we ran a B19 with an air box, we have been told if we want to continue racing with an air box, it needs to be on the HTP for Spa next month.

I would like the option to run an air box and race in the same specification to our competitor's B19's.

My issue: We found the MSA will not grant papers for a B19 with headlights (required for Peter Auto events) and an air box in period G-
"07.07.17 We are not interested in what might be required for whatever series. An HTP can only be issued for a car exactly as it was in period - or a precise copy of such a car. If non period specification parts are needed for a series today then those parts must be fitted after a correct HTP has been obtained.
So, please fit the appropriate bodywork, remove all remaining airbox components and we can process this."

At the time we didn't want to dispute, so accepted the expense to have a spare nose painted (without headlights), removed the air box system, and finally the HTP was issued.

To resolve the Scrutineering/Air box issue; would you advise to:
-Re-submit HTP papers to the MSA with updated photos?
-Dispute the PA's scrutineer- Henri Pluton's decision?
...or is there an appeal system to protest every period G B19 in Europe running an air box?

If the HTP avenue has to be taken, could you clarify about headlights - I understand in 1971's appendix J Art. 270. allows the mounting of head lights. (I can't see how 5-3/4" headlamps are not period correct)

Thanks

Simon,

the answer is simple, you cannot run a B19 with airbox in Period GR according to FIA rules and you won't see one in the FIA Championship as far as I'm concerned because they didn't exist up until 1972 as far as I can document it...! And unlike the T212 which trialed it in 1971 notably in Imola.

You could argue Henri's decision but I will only back him and actually forward him the discussion and ask for all airbox to be removed for Period GR unless it can be documented. You can also appeal all these cars simply by putting a protest up to the Peter Auto Stewards... Or simply by telling the people to do their job I would say.

On headlights, it's a simple deal. Chevron manufactured specific and additional fibreglass round supports for headlights which you can see on numerous B19 in period across the world. If you want to fit headlights according to FIA rules, you must replicate the Chevron period attributes.

The bodywork incorporated headlights only appeared from 1972 onwards and additionally, you have to run symmetrical body and ROPS by that year as well so it's not as simple as one would think but it is period correct and that is what matters to us.

Best, Louis.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

If you’re talking about headlamps, it is a PA regulation in CER1 & CER2 that prototypes race with headlamps on, to make them more obvious to slower (not always ) GT cars. So the only option (according to MSUK) is to get HTP papers without, then fit......

Or to do the job as it was done up to 1971 included and to stop distorting history. The trouble is that people think Thundersports specification are the period correct one, which it's not.

[zefarelly]

Where do you get the Period correct Castrol GTX girls from ?

[Simon P]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Simon,

the answer is simple, you cannot run a B19 with airbox in Period GR according to FIA rules and you won't see one in the FIA Championship as far as I'm concerned because they didn't exist up until 1972 as far as I can document it...! And unlike the T212 which trialed it in 1971 notably in Imola.

You could argue Henri's decision but I will only back him and actually forward him the discussion and ask for all airbox to be removed for Period GR unless it can be documented. You can also appeal all these cars simply by putting a protest up to the Peter Auto Stewards... Or simply by telling the people to do their job I would say.

On headlights, it's a simple deal. Chevron manufactured specific and additional fibreglass round supports for headlights which you can see on numerous B19 in period across the world. If you want to fit headlights according to FIA rules, you must replicate the Chevron period attributes.

The bodywork incorporated headlights only appeared from 1972 onwards and additionally, you have to run symmetrical body and ROPS by that year as well so it's not as simple as one would think but it is period correct and that is what matters to us.

Best, Louis.

Thanks Louis, I fully accept there are not period photos until February 1972.

My query is more ‘sporting’ related to the 4 other internationally prepared B19’s we are raced against in Barcelona with an air boxes on their HTP’s

Is it a case that we have to wait up to ten years for the opposition’s current HTP’s to expire?
Or will this warrant a accepted standard being written into appendix K next year?
...Failing the above do UK racers ship their cars internationally for more favourable HTP applications?

We are all happy to ‘play by the rules’ but only they should applied to everyone...

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Simon P

Thanks Louis, I fully accept there are not period photos until February 1972.

My query is more ‘sporting’ related to the 4 other internationally prepared B19’s we are raced against in Barcelona with an air boxes on their HTP’s

Is it a case that we have to wait up to ten years for the opposition’s current HTP’s to expire?
Or will this warrant a accepted standard being written into appendix K next year?
...Failing the above do UK racers ship their cars internationally for more favourable HTP applications?

We are all happy to ‘play by the rules’ but only they should applied to everyone...

They do apply to everyone, the trouble is knowing if the HTPs you refer to are actually valid or just applications, in which case you can't do anything as it's not even validated.

Second aspect, the FIA recognises errors and they can happen as with all system involving a human person and even more with history as our knowledge of the past is an ever growing one as the years come by and pictures show up.

So you can request a red dot procedure to be applied by scrutineers to the valid HTP papers so that they are corrected for the next round.

#7 - Correct
#22 - It's a Chevron B21 allowed in CER1 and organiser decision, allowed to race with an airbox and a nonsense but what can we do...?
#56 - I suppose racing on an Application.
#67 - As per the above.

In fact, I have gone through the 22 valid HTPs for B19s and only 3 have an airbox fitted but previous to my time here and when procedures were different, these are exactly the ones that should be red doted for correction. I will tell Mr Pluton about this discussion.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Duddha

They do apply to everyone, the trouble is knowing if the HTPs you refer to are actually valid or just applications, in which case you can't do anything as it's not even validated.

Second aspect, the FIA recognises errors and they can happen as with all system involving a human person and even more with history as our knowledge of the past is an ever growing one as the years come by and pictures show up.

So you can request a red dot procedure to be applied by scrutineers to the valid HTP papers so that they are corrected for the next round.

#7 - Correct
#22 - It's a Chevron B21 allowed in CER1 and organiser decision, allowed to race with an airbox and a nonsense but what can we do...?
#56 - I suppose racing on an Application.
#67 - As per the above.

In fact, I have gone through the 22 valid HTPs for B19s and only 3 have an airbox fitted but previous to my time here and when procedures were different, these are exactly the ones that should be red doted for correction. I will tell Mr Pluton about this discussion.

Correction on #references :

#26 - Correct
#15 - Incorrect
#56 - Incorrect
#67 - Incorrect
#22 - A B21 which is Period HR as said so unless retro-specced to B19, can't do anything.

[Simon P]

Originally Posted by Duddha

They do apply to everyone, the trouble is knowing if the HTPs you refer to are actually valid or just applications, in which case you can't do anything as it's not even validated.

Second aspect, the FIA recognises errors and they can happen as with all system involving a human person and even more with history as our knowledge of the past is an ever growing one as the years come by and pictures show up.

So you can request a red dot procedure to be applied by scrutineers to the valid HTP papers so that they are corrected for the next round.

#7 - Correct
#22 - It's a Chevron B21 allowed in CER1 and organiser decision, allowed to race with an airbox and a nonsense but what can we do...?
#56 - I suppose racing on an Application.
#67 - As per the above.

In fact, I have gone through the 22 valid HTPs for B19s and only 3 have an airbox fitted but previous to my time here and when procedures were different, these are exactly the ones that should be red doted for correction. I will tell Mr Pluton about this discussion.

Louis, thank you for the very thorough answer, I appreciate any system on this scale can never be perfect! But this is all very reassuring.

My last query/clarification… the air box comprises of two sections, the external removable scoop and the bottom engine compartment section which retains the air filter.

Am I correct in assuming; The external scoop must be removed, but the lower ‘air filter-section’ can be retained?

Best,
Simon

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Where do you get the Period correct Castrol GTX girls from ?

I just hope your team manager doesn't read this thread, Joe.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Simon P

Louis, thank you for the very thorough answer, I appreciate any system on this scale can never be perfect! But this is all very reassuring.

My last query/clarification… the air box comprises of two sections, the external removable scoop and the bottom engine compartment section which retains the air filter.

Am I correct in assuming; The external scoop must be removed, but the lower ‘air filter-section’ can be retained?

Best,
Simon

An airbox is an entity even if composed of multiple parts so it's all off unless you can prove the inner section to have been fitted.

For your information, all of these communications have been transmitted to the relevant scrutineers and parties involved.

To give you an insight, one car actually made a fool of our procedure by changing the true caption of the period specification picture presented on Page 2 of the HTP, 6 months apart and 1972, the airbox appeared. We're now a little more documented on these.

[Simon P]

Originally Posted by Duddha

An airbox is an entity even if composed of multiple parts so it's all off unless you can prove the inner section to have been fitted.

For your information, all of these communications have been transmitted to the relevant scrutineers and parties involved.

To give you an insight, one car actually made a fool of our procedure by changing the true caption of the period specification picture presented on Page 2 of the HTP, 6 months apart and 1972, the airbox appeared. We're now a little more documented on these.

Understood. If this is the position taken going forward, I have no issue.
In my point of view, I do not want any surprises next time out...!

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Where do you get the Period correct Castrol GTX girls from ?

Dunno Joe, but whatever you do not mention alloy block BDG's

[Duddha]

We understand there has been some discrepancies as to how the period reference photograph featured on Page 2 of the Historic Technical Passport (HTP) is used, interpreted or commented, if this clarification can be circulated within your ASNs and inspectors, scrutineers, this would clarify the situation. Additionally, we will have it circulated within the FIA as well.

HOMOLOGATED CARS
- For a Homologated car, the period reference photograph on Page 2 of the HTP is mandatory since 2019 as per the HTP Guidelines.
- For a Homologated car, the period reference photograph on Page 2 of the HTP must be within the FIA Period claimed but not necessarily in accordance with the year of specification claimed even if we encourage the use of a matching photograph where possible.
o Therefore the Year of Specification can be different.
o Still, we would like the reference photograph to be in accordance with the claimed specification in terms of bodywork, accessories and/or options.
o If no photograph of the car exists in situ and in period, you may use the Homologation photograph.
- The period reference photograph displaying a period livery can be used to support a car with no livery or to support the use of the full livery, provided in every case the bodywork, accessories and/or options are the same.

NON-HOMOLOGATED CARS
- For a Non-Homologated car, the Year of Specification and reference photograph must absolutely be matching for the Year of Specification and be within the FIA Period claimed.

[SamBinfield]

As this seems like the most appropriate place to ask, how is the specification of a non-homologated car handled for the purpose of HTP's? As an example (unless I am otherwise mistaken) the Ginetta G4 R, for which I can only find homologation papers for the earlier G4. As I understand it from reading previous posts, it is acceptable to fit any engine used in that type of car in a period International event, thus allowing the use of the Lotus Twin-Cam. Likewise, I imagine that the bodywork is covered by period photographs. What I do not understand is how finer details such as minimum weight, final drive, gear ratios, brake system and the like are determined in this case. Would anyone be willing to indulge my curiosity?

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by SamBinfield

As this seems like the most appropriate place to ask, how is the specification of a non-homologated car handled for the purpose of HTP's? As an example (unless I am otherwise mistaken) the Ginetta G4 R, for which I can only find homologation papers for the earlier G4. As I understand it from reading previous posts, it is acceptable to fit any engine used in that type of car in a period International event, thus allowing the use of the Lotus Twin-Cam. Likewise, I imagine that the bodywork is covered by period photographs. What I do not understand is how finer details such as minimum weight, final drive, gear ratios, brake system and the like are determined in this case. Would anyone be willing to indulge my curiosity?

That's where historic motor sport gets interesting. The Non-Homologated cars are handled through an intricate work of getting the period documentation such as pictures, programs, scrutineering sheets, bills of sales, manufacturers documentation and so on altogether to prove the specification you claim to have existed at a given moment in the timeframe you wish to register the car in.

On the Ginetta G4R it was handled in the FIA over a period of two years and with two different and comprehensive dossiers put together by the Applicant, with numerous pictures, documentation and testimonies on the car from USA and UK as well as tracking the period car to seek further clarification.

On our side, a total panel of 6 people were consulted, either for their period knowledge of the manufacturer and model, the rules and their interpretation as well as simply the analysis of the dossiers submitted.

Another aspect which may be of interest in this is that we also carry our own research, the FIA gathers together its own database in order to analyse or asses period practices. We give way ourselves and this through our own documentation. We try, once a period practice is proven to have it become acceptable should the specification be matching and that's the key aspect.

One practice may appear "acceptable" but remember that a specification is a whole and not "cherry picking" the best out of one and another.

[Duddha]

A little update on FIA Regulations and Appendix K, following on WMSC of 14.06.2019 the latest version of Appendix K will be available here - https://www.fia.com/historic-regulations

Also and for your information, the same regulations are available on the FIA Historic Database as well in the regulations section - https://historicdb.fia.com/

It concerns the addition of a harness safety standard under Appendix K Article 5 for Safety and two updated to Appendix VII of Appendix K which are for the Porsche and Cobra.

Last, I apologise on my previous post and spelling error, "assess" was what I meant and thanks to one for pointing it out, my French is very bad, sorry

[SamBinfield]

Originally Posted by Duddha

That's where historic motor sport gets interesting. The Non-Homologated cars are handled through an intricate work of getting the period documentation such as pictures, programs, scrutineering sheets, bills of sales, manufacturers documentation and so on altogether to prove the specification you claim to have existed at a given moment in the timeframe you wish to register the car in.

On the Ginetta G4R it was handled in the FIA over a period of two years and with two different and comprehensive dossiers put together by the Applicant, with numerous pictures, documentation and testimonies on the car from USA and UK as well as tracking the period car to seek further clarification.

On our side, a total panel of 6 people were consulted, either for their period knowledge of the manufacturer and model, the rules and their interpretation as well as simply the analysis of the dossiers submitted.

Another aspect which may be of interest in this is that we also carry our own research, the FIA gathers together its own database in order to analyse or asses period practices. We give way ourselves and this through our own documentation. We try, once a period practice is proven to have it become acceptable should the specification be matching and that's the key aspect.

One practice may appear "acceptable" but remember that a specification is a whole and not "cherry picking" the best out of one and another.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed reply - very much appreciated 🙂Surely it is not possible to determine every last detail of the specification however? Items featured in homologation papers such as brake disc diameter, gear ratio, valve sizes, minimum weight surely cannot be identified precisely in all cases because the records surely don’t exist. My assumption would be that these open points are resolved based on what was likely - for example, taking over valve sizes from other similar cars homologated with the Twin-Cam engine, weight from the regulations governing the class, disc size inferred from a period article “brakes were Triumph items” or something along those lines?

[Simon Hadfield]

The point should be made that it is always the responsibility of the applicant to show why a car is in the specification that is presented. The overriding qualification is that the car must have competed - legally and provably - in a event that was on the FIA International Calendar of that year. Therefore there would have been regulations that the car had to comply with and usually - because it was an International event - there would be photographs and documentation that is discoverable. Usually.......