[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Number7]

I think the ACO should drop the LMP2 and only have one LMP class. Never been interested in LMP2 and now I guess no one will be !!i

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Number7

I think the ACO should drop the LMP2 and only have one LMP class. Never been interested in LMP2 and now I guess no one will be !!i

It should never be dropped, but it should be transfered into Privateers (Lmp2) and Manufactures (Lmp1)

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by CTD

Never saw this before now!
why increase the weight in LMP 2, and give them smaller engines!, this will make it uninteresting to enter in that category!.
One thing is sure!, it will make it completely privateers!

Too help assure LMP1 is the OVERALL WINNER.

Which to force manufactures that want an over all win ( great for marketing) to run in LMP1, not LMP2 is my guess.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by CTD

Never saw this before now!
why increase the weight in LMP 2, and give them smaller engines!, this will make it uninteresting to enter in that category!.
One thing is sure!, it will make it completely privateers!

Cheaper, more durable cars.

It will be interesting to see how close P2 gets, cost wise, to GT2.

This class could encourage the likes of Rollcentre to return.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by CTD

It should never be dropped, but it should be transfered into Privateers (Lmp2) and Manufactures (Lmp1)

That's what ACO wants.

[zac510]

Privateers like Charouz and so forth consistently want to compete in LMP1 anyway no matter what. You can't force them to join LMP2 either.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by CTD

It should never be dropped, but it should be transfered into Privateers (Lmp2) and Manufactures (Lmp1)

The other challenge is, there is NO CLEAR definition of who or what is a Privateer Team.

Many teams get substantial Manufacture support, technical support, parts and even drivers, but no money. Yet are these teams Privateer, works or semi-works teams?

The ACO and FIA have not yet clearly defined what is a "Works" or "Semi-Works" team?

To my understanding Only Peugeot is a run by Peugeot Sport.

Audi is run by Champion or Jost
Ferrari is run by Risi
Corvette is run by Pratt & Miller
etc.

Get the idea?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by zac510

Privateers like Charouz and so forth consistently want to compete in LMP1 anyway no matter what. You can't force them to join LMP2 either.

The reasoning of the ACO is to keep full works teams out of P-2, to allow privateers an LMP class to compete in without having to go up against limitless (comparatively) budgeted teams.This does not include the boutique mfgs, unless they become so dominant as to stifle competition. It is not to keep privateers out of P-1, but it is to tell the likes of Henri that P-1 is the domain where they will have to compete with the uber-teams that dwell there! This piece pretty well explains why the new verbage on Mfg vs Privateer was added to the 08 rules. Here



L.P.

[AU N EGL]

I Like the part about 5% brides.

IMO the ACO does not get the idea of "in the Spirit of Le Mans" anymore. The RULES MUST BE IN WRITING. No more "In the Spirit of" will always be subject to interpretation.

It is funny when IMSA changes the rules slightly or "in the Spirit of" Le Mans for the ALMS, the ACO gets up set.
But hey, the rules are "In the Spirit of."

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I Like the part about 5% brides.

IMO the ACO does not get the idea of "in the Spirit of Le Mans" anymore. The RULES MUST BE IN WRITING. No more "In the Spirit of" will always be subject to interpretation.

It is funny when IMSA changes the rules slightly or "in the Spirit of" Le Mans for the ALMS, the ACO gets up set.
But hey, the rules are "In the Spirit of."

MUST BE IN WRITING. Why so someone can circumvent them?!



L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

MUST BE IN WRITING. Why so someone can circumvent them?!



L.P.

YUP.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

The reasoning of the ACO is to keep full works teams out of P-2, to allow privateers an LMP class to compete in without having to go up against limitless (comparatively) budgeted teams.This does not include the boutique mfgs, unless they become so dominant as to stifle competition. It is not to keep privateers out of P-1, but it is to tell the likes of Henri that P-1 is the domain where they will have to compete with the uber-teams that dwell there! This piece pretty well explains why the new verbage on Mfg vs Privateer was added to the 08 rules. Here



L.P.

Yeah I understand but how does that justify the performance handicap?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I have no problems keeping manufacturer teams out of LMP2. But a privateer must always have a chance to take LM24 overall, anything else is wrong IMHO. Have to say though I quite like the fact that at the moment you've got very different cars (light vs heavy) competing against each other (well, in ALMS), both with their own strenghts and weaknesess. Perhaps an engine size/weight system should be introduced in both classes.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by zac510

Yeah I understand but how does that justify the performance handicap?

P2 should always have been a clear step down from P1, performance and cost wise, it should not only be an option for privateers forced out of P1, but also teams stepping up from GT.

[johntt]

The new P1/P2 rules strike a clear picture of what the classes are for.

P1 will small high revving engines primarily for manufacturers to develop future engine technology and its open to any privateers that are rich enough.

P2 will big, low revving engines that should be low maintenance and last a long time, perfect for privateers.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by zac510

Yeah I understand but how does that justify the performance handicap?

There is no performance handicap!!! It started in 05' when the ACO started implementing the P-1/2 classes vs 900/675 classes and in 05' both rule sets were in play. 06' was the first year under P-1/2 rules only. Then starting with 07', after seeing how the rules shook out in the real world, rule adjustments were made to further define the parameters of the classes (Art.19 pg.21). Then after the 07' season more adjustments were applied to further refine the rules to meet the desired separation of classes and overall performance (Art.19 refinements and Art.19.2 pg 22). Now after the 08' season and the performance of all the LMP's with the continued blurring of boundries and further exceeding the ACO's overall target, more have been made.


L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Diesels are low revs in comparison. what 45-5000 rpms

[Teretonga]

The 2011 rules seem to explicitly encourage manufacturers to develop diesel over normally aspirated engines in P1.

Having the same weight as P1 and P2 maeans privateers will always be at a disadvantage for overall competition and that is, IMO, a mistake.
It means only manufacturers or manufacturer supported teams will be able to play for the overall prize.
The 'giant killer private team' aspect will be completely gone and they will only be a supporting cast. That may work against the future of the event and if it does I will not be surprised.

I can understand why they don't want manufacturers using P2 as a back door (eg. Penske/Porsche) but in eality they should be encouraging privateers not marginalising them. Keep KERS for P1 but allow a weight break for P2. (700 or 750kg) OR allow an LMP3 class at around 600-650kg with reduced power but 75 litre tanks so they can outlast the bigger cars....

[Valenok]

Is it possible for P2 teams to use P1 chassi's? They have same weight, same length, engines of practically same displasement...

[CTD]

Probably!.
But i think they must be modified in some way, like now!

[dj choc ice]

its a shame really the new regulations, we should see some technologically innovative cars coming through, but in complete honesty the cars are going to be a LOT slower from the looks of thing, im skeptical about hybrid technology in sportscars and im no fan of it, diesel i detest quite frankly and most people know this already.

It would be great to see a LMP900/ LMP675 style formula introduced again, on paper that system was brilliant, its just a shame it never properly worked out, LMP675 cars being too simple and the LMP900 cars being overly complex and advanced in comparison to much of the 675 grid.

With regards to this 520hp limit people speak of, i dont see it happening like that, more than likely we will probably see cars with atleast 550bhp in LMP1, we will probably see power figures that we had around 2003-2004, around 550bhp-600bhp, however though the restrictor sizes havent been announced yet (as far as i am aware that is). a couple of years into the new regs and the constructors will probably have cars that are similar to the 2007 LMP1's in terms of performance, unless the new aero regs considerably reduce aerdynamic downforce.

[TRuss]

2009 rules may be calling for 520 hp. Have they determined that exhibition hybrids must also produce 520 hp? If not, then we are looking at 520 engine hp. And as far as I know there is no limit on torque, and this is where electric motors really shine. I think we will actually see engines using less rpm, and producing greater and flatter torque curves with greater effeciency. Especially if they aren't hybrids. A hybrid powered car will be able to get away with a peakier engine.

I have seen many rules that have attempted to slow down race cars over the last decade or so. They work for a little while but the engineers soon catch up again. The performance drop won't be so great, and the cars will probably appear to be just as fast as they are now. Even if lap times show otherwise. I don't think the spectacle will suffer as much as others.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The 2011 rules seem to explicitly encourage manufacturers to develop diesel over normally aspirated engines in P1.

Having the same weight as P1 and P2 maeans privateers will always be at a disadvantage for overall competition and that is, IMO, a mistake.
It means only manufacturers or manufacturer supported teams will be able to play for the overall prize.
The 'giant killer private team' aspect will be completely gone and they will only be a supporting cast. That may work against the future of the event and if it does I will not be surprised.

I can understand why they don't want manufacturers using P2 as a back door (eg. Penske/Porsche) but in eality they should be encouraging privateers not marginalising them. Keep KERS for P1 but allow a weight break for P2. (700 or 750kg) OR allow an LMP3 class at around 600-650kg with reduced power but 75 litre tanks so they can outlast the bigger cars....

I think you've missed the point, privateers can compete in P1.

The Porsche and Acura P2's weren't a budget option for overall wins, they had to be pushed harder and were more fragile than a 900kg P1.

Manufactuers and large privateers will slug it out in P1, but P2 will be a serious budget option, more durable 900kg chassis, less stressed production based engines, and no worries about manufacturer's pushing the P2 performance envelope beyond privateers means, in order to compete for overall wins.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

its a shame really the new regulations, we should see some technologically innovative cars coming through, but in complete honesty the cars are going to be a LOT slower from the looks of thing, im skeptical about hybrid technology in sportscars and im no fan of it, diesel i detest quite frankly and most people know this already.

It would be great to see a LMP900/ LMP675 style formula introduced again, on paper that system was brilliant, its just a shame it never properly worked out, LMP675 cars being too simple and the LMP900 cars being overly complex and advanced in comparison to much of the 675 grid.

With regards to this 520hp limit people speak of, i dont see it happening like that, more than likely we will probably see cars with atleast 550bhp in LMP1, we will probably see power figures that we had around 2003-2004, around 550bhp-600bhp, however though the restrictor sizes havent been announced yet (as far as i am aware that is). a couple of years into the new regs and the constructors will probably have cars that are similar to the 2007 LMP1's in terms of performance, unless the new aero regs considerably reduce aerdynamic downforce.

Ignoring the diesels performance, specifically at Le Mans, the new cars performance shouldn't be all that different to '06-'07 petrol cars. On regular circuits, the chassis will play a bigger part, that's why P2's are so competitive, even at Le Mans a privateer RS Spyder qualified in 3.34.

With relatively small engines, and retaining current chassis, I could imagine the ACO leaving these untouched for a good few years, focusing their efforts on balancing the hybrid technology. Only allowing hybrids to save fuel, rather than produce power, gives the ACO less to worry about performance wise.

[Purist]

JAG, the serious privateers over here aren't interested in second tier scraps, a lot of the other privateers are in GA, and how "budget" could P2 have been before Acura and Porsche showed up? None of the cars specifically designed for P675/P2 have been exactly cheap. And before they showed up, the old SRPII Lolas and Pilbeams weren't especially reliable, so before the factories appeared, the class was a joke.

And if P1 is so encouraging to new technologies, then NO, privateers will be FAR less competitive there than they are now. The small constructors simply don't have the R&D capacity to keep up with that. And the only manufacturer interested in sportscar racing that I have faith would produce customer cars is Porsche, but they're NOT in P1 and there's no indication that they will be soon.