Group A Rover 3500 SD1/Vitesse - History & Whereabouts - Page 14

Mr Revhead · 18 Jun 2007, 09:27 (Ref:1940616)

ok, i havnt read all this thread.. too long!
but i may have a little new info here
dec 2006 edition of NZ classic car has an article on denny hulme and the 1986 TT race. car is number 9 istel rover. co driven by jeff allam, who they say now owns the car.
same article has a pic of a no 7 texaco walkinshaw car aswell, caption saying at andersop 1986

corliss · 25 Jun 2007, 13:22 (Ref:1946304)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Hi Skip - so pleased you've managed to get the car back to 'Blighty', and very interested to see what you've unearthed about the car in such a small timescale. Was Ken pleased to see it then?

I suppose if it's Sanyo blue under everything else, then it dates back to the 1982 season at least. However, with it being a David Price Racing bodyshell, then it might be even earlier than that by my reckoning. DPR ran the cars during the 1980 season in Triplex / ESSO / Motor livery, with TWR taking over for the 1981 season in Daily Express / ESSO livery.

If what Skip says is correct - ie Sanyo Grp 1 car built on a DPR shell - then I'd say it could be one that was inherited by TWR when they took over the programme from DPR for the 1981 season. Chances are that the cars (and spares) actually belonged to British Leyland at the time, so whoever carried on for the next season from DPR actually acquired all the cars (and spares).

So (even more speculation here!) the car could have been rebuilt / newly built for the 1981 season by TWR, using an ex-DPR race car / spare bodyshell. That's the only reason why we'd have a Sanyo Grp 1 car built on a DPR shell by my reckoning - unless anyone else knows otherwise?

Skip - if this speculation is somewhat more than the sad late night ramblings of an enthusiastic anorak, then there may well be one more colour scheme under the Sanyo blue that you are expecting to find at the bottom!

The 'show car' theory not only explains the assorted body parts that this car features from Series 1 and Series 2 cars, but also the variety of colour schemes evident from your post above. It'll be like travelling back through time - each layer will need removing to reveal another era below it.

I've got a few photos that might be of interest. Shall I post them here for everyone's pleasure, or do you want to send me your email address by PM? Tell you what, I'll post smaller versions here, and I'll drop the larger files on an email to you if they're of interest?

I'm so pleased that the future prospects of this car in making a healthy return to recollect past glories. Top man - please do keep us informed of developments as and when you get a chance.

Slowly getting to bottom of it all, after getting through about 5 coats of paint i have arrived at Sanyo Blue with Red panel on nose of bonnet with faint outline of ESSO, on roof above pass door faint outline of PETER, I assume Peter Lovett, but no trace of surname, looking at old photo`s I think they just used first names I.E. JEFF & PETER.
I am now certain it is an 82 Grp1 car raced by Peter Lovett, repainted in Sanyo colours from its original White Daily Express colours raced in late `81. there is evidence of White & Dark Blue stripe underneath the Sanyo Blue.
if anyone has any idea`s on which car had the Red bonnet panel & which had the plain Blue bonnet it would help in identifing if it is in fact the Lovett championship winning car.
Updates to follow when I get time to do more research
Skip

**chunterer** · 25 Jun 2007, 18:30 (Ref:1946588)

An old picture in front of me now:

Last Grp 1 race, Silverstone 1982:

Bit feint. Into Woodcote chicane Spice leads Woodman and Lovett in no 19 Sanyo 3500 brakes locked which as you can see has a red 'grille' strip with Esso signwriting as you were referring to.

I guess this is the car you have.

I guess if you're going to restore it, this is would be a great livery to do it in? Although Allam was class winner that year in the sister car! Lovett might have won the big class the previous season in the Daily Express livery? Can anyone confirm this

corliss · 25 Jun 2007, 22:30 (Ref:1946828)

Good call Chunterer, Peter Lovett did indeed win class "A" in 81 with Jeff Allum 2nd. Win Percy won outright in the TWR Mazda RX7, although for the final round Tom W` did not risk him racing and had him on the pit wall hanging out the pit board to Lovett. After the race he is quoted as saying " thats the first Group 1 race I have watched in seven years.... it`s a bit hairy isn`t it " He also announced his retirement from racing at that time, Quote from Autosport " it is unlikeley, however, that the tracks have seen the last of Win Percy "
Back to My car, ken Clarke recalls seeing it out the back of TWR`s prior to being shipped off to France, whether it raced or not is a mystery, although I have a French magazine article from 83 stating that ( if my translation is correct ) that Rene Metge stuffed his car in one event and used a TWR shell, with his running gear, for the following event, could it have been this shell used for that one event?? could explain the accurate Marlboro paint job. The car certainly shows plenty of evidence of a hard racing life, plenty of marks and dents on the underside, but if the seller is accurate it has not been used since 86, looks like it too.
Also the early 83 Sanyo cars look remarkably similar to the 82 cars, skinny roll cage, same interior looking at photo`s apart from later wide instrument pod on early dash, 5 stud wheels etc, could they have been used in early grpA spec, injected engine, disc rear brakes etc??
Incidently according to Autosport June 25 1981, the Patrick Motorsport Rover of Brian Muir ran a fuel injected engine and a late style rear spoiler, they also had a front spoiler but were not allowed to use it as it was not yet homologated. baring in mind that the Australian Rover S1 SD1 had fuel injection from 1980 I am surprised it did not appear on the "works" cars till 83.
If i can figure out how to insert a photo on this site I will update progress
If indeed I have the Lovett Daily Express/Sanyo car, Where is the other one?? there were only 2
Skip

**chunterer** · 26 Jun 2007, 08:45 (Ref:1947048)

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

Good call Chunterer, Peter Lovett did indeed win class "A" in 81 with Jeff Allum 2nd. Win Percy won outright in the TWR Mazda RX7, although for the final round Tom W` did not risk him racing and had him on the pit wall hanging out the pit board to Lovett. After the race he is quoted as saying " thats the first Group 1 race I have watched in seven years.... it`s a bit hairy isn`t it " He also announced his retirement from racing at that time, Quote from Autosport " it is unlikeley, however, that the tracks have seen the last of Win Percy "

Excellent snippet from the past there!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

ken Clarke recalls seeing it out the back of TWR`s prior to being shipped off to France, whether it raced or not is a mystery. The car certainly shows plenty of evidence of a hard racing life, plenty of marks and dents on the underside, but if the seller is accurate it has not been used since 86, looks like it too.

Well Lovett had several barging matches with Capris that year, particularly Woodman's at Brands GP round and at the last round where I'm sure Pete was deliberately employed as 'torpedo' car to distract Vince's challenge to Jeff, so both cars were in the wars. The current owner of that Capri said that a nice dent was seen in the side of the Capri at one stage of its restoration that might either have had Sanyo blue origins, or indeed its black bumper marks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

Also the early 83 Sanyo cars look remarkably similar to the 82 cars, skinny roll cage, same interior looking at photo`s apart from later wide instrument pod on early dash, 5 stud wheels etc, could they have been used in early grpA spec, injected engine, disc rear brakes etc??

Well ken said somehwere on this thread that afahcr no Grp 1 cars were rebuilt into Grp A spec for '83. They did use more basic suspension (mountings?) to start the year off, but nothing else related to Grp 1. The 1983 cars were new builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

If i can figure out how to insert a photo on this site I will update progress. If indeed I have the Lovett Daily Express/Sanyo car, Where is the other one?? there were only 2.

Good question, whilst the Grp 1 cars are not strictly speaking the purpose of this thread, I see no reason why we shouldn't continue to explore the Grp1 cars history - particularly as you have acquired one corliss!!

davyboy · 27 Jun 2007, 19:21 (Ref:1948411)

Corliss with such an colourful history to that car of yours [if you'll pardon the pun], what livery are you planning to restore it to ?

**chunterer** · 28 Jun 2007, 09:25 (Ref:1948829)

Reckon he fancies the Sanyo scheme?

However, theoretically it ought to be done up in the '81 Daily Express livery.

corliss · 29 Jun 2007, 19:27 (Ref:1949967)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Reckon he fancies the Sanyo scheme?

However, theoretically it ought to be done up in the '81 Daily Express livery.

50/50 here guy`s. But as it only spent half a season racing in Daily Express colours and a full season in Sanyo, I guess it might end up in Blue, unless somebody convinces me it would be more historically correct to use early colour as that was the first time Rover became the dominant force in Grp1.
Could someone please tell me how to insert a "thumbnail", While researching this car I have come across a couple of photo`s of GrpA cars that I have not seen mentioned, I have also bumped into what is reputed to be Chassis No 001 GrpA, minus engine/box, i am sure this will re appear shortly.
Skip

**Peter Mallett** · 30 Jun 2007, 06:31 (Ref:1950224)

Skip,

At the bottom of the reply box you'll see"go advanced", click on that and at the bottom of that screen you'll see "manage attachments".

You can upload from there.

**chunterer** · 30 Jun 2007, 10:57 (Ref:1950402)

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

50/50 here guy`s. But as it only spent half a season racing in Daily Express colours and a full season in Sanyo, I guess it might end up in Blue, unless somebody convinces me it would be more historically correct to use early colour as that was the first time Rover became the dominant force in Grp1.
Could someone please tell me how to insert a "thumbnail", While researching this car I have come across a couple of photo`s of GrpA cars that I have not seen mentioned, I have also bumped into what is reputed to be Chassis No 001 GrpA, minus engine/box, i am sure this will re appear shortly.
Skip

Excellent, look forward to seeing these extra shots!

According to what we've got (see also chassis archive thread) TWR 001 is the Grp A 'hack' or test/development car.

If any Grp A's were originally built for Grp 1 racing, this would be the most likely candidate.

Have you managed to follow Peter's instructions yet? I might also add that the image you post needs to be certain size requirements. It explains what in faq's under:

http://tentenths.com/forum/faq.php?f...q_faq_post_pic

Further note:

Whilst this thread seems to have gravitated towards the TWR cars (they were the numerically dominant models) it would also be good to see other Grp A versions and we can add them to the chassis list under different heading! We know a fair amount of history about certain models but could do with chassis numbers for the Rouse built and Martin Thomas built cars for example. However, they may not have specific identities, after all the TWR cars had their own identity.

I've made some additions to the Chassis Archve thread, so please cast your eyes over them and further suggestions/amendments are most welcome!!

The prodsaloon cars can be looked at separately (so nice pic GBRM but pls can we keep the thread to the modified cars!)

Edit: Pic moved.

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 13:23 (Ref:1950488)

I might be getting towards indentifying the white Vodafone-sponsored car in the photo someone posted a few pages back from a Portuguese classic car show
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1467...44672173OaIViC

Just been looking at some stuff on another forum, (remember the screenshots for a 'Touring Car Legends' Group A mod for one of the racing simulation games that were posted in the Metro turbo thread), and tripped over a post a couple of months old from a guy talking about various Portuguese cars and mentioning that his father, Helder Oliviera had raced a TWR Rover in Portugal in the 80s.

A quick Google found several references to the name, but only one in connection with a Rover- an advertisement on a classic car website for a TWR Rover for sale, dated 2004:

Parts For Sale Ad. Helder Oliveira (Lisboa,Portugal).Only Vitesse TWR in the hands of a privateer! a true collection car!raced in group A portuguese categorie,and been in a garage ever since,its like new

Only contact details given are a phone number, but I've posted a request for further info on the Racing Sims forum and I'll add anything that comes back into the thread

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 15:08 (Ref:1950571)

KA, just looking at the front spoiler on the portugese car and it looks like the french superturisme pattern, quite different to the GrpA cars, also bonnet cut out panel for "fire/stop" is much further inboard. I have collected quite a few photo`s of the french car`s while I was researching my car when I thought it maybe a french one. I have a french magazine shot of Metge`s 84-85 car and it appears identical to the Vodafone car right down to the small alloy splitter on base of spoiler.
I am still having probs posting pic`s, tried following Peters advice but do not have "manage attachments" in advanced, is it because I do not have enough posts?

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 15:51 (Ref:1950593)

I'd never noticed that before!

Just looked at the pics of your car from the original Ebay listing and compared them with the shot of the Portuguese car and a few others and see exactly what you mean.

The bonnet cut-out is interesting- I won't swear to this but from the few pics I've got in which you can clearly see it, it seems to be further inboard on more recent cars...

I've got pics of the 84 ETCC season 'Fleet' cars and 85/6 Bastos cars clearly showing the cutout in the more inboard position of the Portuguese car, while in a pic of the Tom Walkinshaw 1983 rallycar 'FJO450Y', one of the Soper 'Hepolite' car and a pitlane shot of a French Marlboro car testing at Silverstone (think they're all in this thread somewhere...) it's in the same place as on your car.

I've also noticed another interesting detail difference in bodyshells between earlier cars and the later Bastos cars, but I'll come back to that when I've looked at more pics....

As to the front spoiler, yes, it's definitely a different shape- much more squared off, with a smaller intake and those distinctive rectangular intakes (brake ducts?) either side. The main intake is clearly narrower though than it is on the spoiler on your car, or on some other pics of I've seen of Marlboro cars.

Originally I'd thought it had just been messed around a bit in Portugal, but coincidentally I've also seen recently a pic of one of the Bastos cars now in New Zealand (think it's Allan Dippie's car, which has been discussed several times in the thread) with the same squarer/narrow intake/seperate brake ducts spoiler....

However, I'm sure I've also seen pics of that car with a 'conventional' spoiler, and if I remember correctly, Allan is currently restoring a Marlboro car- wonder if he's occasionally had cause to swap front spoilers at events for some reason...? I think you might be onto something here....

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 17:21 (Ref:1950668)

Metge`s 84 car, note battery jack plug below R/H headlamp, also evident on portuguese car, not seen on GrpA cars

If link works will try more pics
Skip

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 17:42 (Ref:1950682)

Allam & Lovett, Lovett wins class A 1981

Rover`s first domination

By Corlisstrans at 2007-06-30
By Corlisstrans at 2007-06-30

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 17:48 (Ref:1950687)

Which car is this? Eddy Joosens leading Soper

Skip

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 18:02 (Ref:1950695)

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

Metge`s 84 car, note battery jack plug below R/H headlamp, also evident on portuguese car, not seen on GrpA cars

If link works will try more pics
Skip

Brilliant- that's definitely the same spoiler as on the Portuguese car. The battery jack plug (I'd been wondering what it was...) does appear on some Group A cars- I've got pics of the 'Austin Rover Fleet' cars, and 86 season Bastos cars which clearly show it, but other pics which don't.....

I'll try and find the shot I recently saw of Allan Dippie's Bastos car in NZ with the 'French' spoiler....

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 18:14 (Ref:1950710)

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

Which car is this? Eddy Joosens leading Soper

Skip

I suuspect that could be 005, the LHD car built for Joosen to race in Belgium in 83. Ken Clarke gave ths history of that one earlier in the thread. It was later painted in Barclay livery for the Spa 24 hours

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-019.jpg

It's interesting that car comes up while we're talking about the French cars, as according to the details Ken gave, it then became one of the Marlboro cars the 1984 Marc Duez car, and the spare car for Schlesser for 1985
It was restored some years ago into Bastos livery for the Arthur Carter collection, but is now with Allan Dippie in NZ who is restoring it to Marlboro colours.(His Bastos car is an 86-season car, chassis 018)

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 18:30 (Ref:1950717)

Bastos car (018) at the Skope Classic event in NZ with both versions of the spoiler:

2006 with Group A spoiler
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19229307@N00/118378728/

2007 with 'French' spoiler, as on the Metge car and the Portuguese car. I've never seen it in any other pics, so I'd agree with your conclusion that it's unique to the 1984 Marlboro cars...and probably no coincidence that the Bastos car it's seen on is owned by someone who also has the team car to the Metge car in your pic...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19229307@N00/381211174/

I'm very interested to find out the history of that Portuguese car now....

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 18:51 (Ref:1950729)

Just noticed the battery jack plug below the headlight on that car...

The other interesting feature I've spotted on TWR Rovers is the recess in the left-hand 'C' pillar (ie behind the rear door) This isn't there at all on the early cars like yours, As far as I can see it first appears on 1983 season cars- eg Allam/Lovett, Spa 83

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-020.jpg

Any idea what it is?

On Bastos cars it's replaced by two separate circular apertures

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-001.jpg

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 19:05 (Ref:1950737)

On '96 season Bastos cars, the two recesses are more widely spaced

http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-03-008.jpg
(Walkinshaw/Percy/Joosen, Spa 86)

What's interesting is that photos of Bastos cars at occasional races in both 85 and 86 show the earlier single rectangular recess
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-08-03-009.jpg
(Crichton/Dickson/McMillan, Spa 86)

Another example is on the white Bastos car which appeared at Estoril in 85- which we concluded a few pages back was either a replacement for, or a rebuild of the car heavily shunted at the previous round. I'm wondering if the occasional reappearance of this feature in 85/6 might indicate the re-use of earlier cars or bodyshells...

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 19:21 (Ref:1950754)

C post aperture`s are Air jack points, the fact that you see different spacings really muddies the waters as far as knowing which chassis is which.

French air dam`s, again to confuse,

1: plain air dam - NO holes

2: single hole each side

3: Two holes each side

Skip

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 19:34 (Ref:1950760)

Yet another early car for someone to explain!

From a French magazine dated 1980, Test carried out at Goodwood, only indication of car is mention of John Davenport & A.R Motorsport, Driver Rene Metge

Skip

KA · 30 Jun 2007, 19:42 (Ref:1950768)

Quote:

Originally Posted by corliss

C post aperture`s are Air jack points, the fact that you see different spacings really muddies the waters as far as knowing which chassis is which.

French air dam`s, again to confuse,

1: plain air dam - NO holes

2: single hole each side

3: Two holes each side

Skip

Thanks for explaining the air jack points- I've also noticed a similar recess on the right-hand C pillar of the Bastos car in NZ...

With that battery jack plug, I'm wondering if it's just a case of positioning- I've looked through quite a few pics, and can't see it at all in some pics, whereas it's very prominent in some, eg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-29-027.jpg
(Spa 84)
and less so in others
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-28-007.jpg

corliss · 30 Jun 2007, 19:52 (Ref:1950781)

Again French magazine, Feb 83, Rene Metges New car, was this Chassis 001? If you can see it check the rear wheel protusion from bodyshell, cannot see if Right or Left hand drive. If the French cars were Factory shells, how many were there, I find it hard to beleive they raced for so many years with only a couple of car`s!!

Skip

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