Lites / LMP3

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BudLightJaguar

I totally agree. I find most of the internet-wiseguys who don't personally attend at race venues (but have really hard-headed opinions) similar to those gym-goers who don't actually work out but judge others and share 'good tips for bench presing'.

That seems a bit of a smug attitude, as if "if you're not personally involved" your opinion weighs less. Not everybody has the budget and means to travel around the world like you do, so if that makes my view less 'valid' than yours, then sorry And I don't have particular interest in following our local hillbilly-"racing" in Finland either, even though the nearest race track is within couple of kilometers from here.

CTD, I'm not opposed to having 'amateur league' up there in this series. I mean, LMP3 is geared towards that too and very much so, in fact it would be direct continuation of the PC formula as I see it. Oreca FLM09 still racing in 2017-20XX is just unspiring.

Each to it's own

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by Chiana

That seems a bit of a smug attitude, as if "if you're not personally involved" your opinion weighs less. Not everybody has the budget and means to travel around the world like you do, so if that makes my view less 'valid' than yours, then sorry

No, I'm not trying to say that watching the race from HD stream accompanied with live timing makes opinion less valid. But with money you can actually have some effect on what kind of products we'll see in the future.

In general, I'm not mean-spirited but in the Western world poverty is a choice in many cases.

[fieldodreams79]

Having seen them several times in person and many times on the tube, my 2 cents regarding LMPC:

The cars themselves were pretty neat when they first came out; decent sound and fairly quick. They provided entertaining races with some experienced pros behind the wheel.

Now, they are kind of "just there", if that makes sense. The cars are the exact same (at a glance), no quicker, still have some experienced pros behind the wheel, but I personally feel they have served their purpose and are more trouble than they are worth.

I wish they would just turn the motors up, in sound and speed and I would be more interested. However, being a spec class, the races are always close and honestly, pretty fun to watch, but they seem to be in the way of the best race on track, GTLM.

I'd like to see them on their own in a stand alone event or given more steam.

[Deleted]

With the exception of Chevy engine, I'm pretty sure every single positive pro-LMPC comment here could be achieved just the same - in improved form too - by introduction of LMP3, rather than relying on FLM09 for another X period.

[Rcz]

I would just give the LMP3s their own class next year, along with the PCs.

No I would not bop them together.

I would also changed the engine rules to be any N/A 5Liter V8 stock block the team would choose.

I see the Lmp3s as the successor to cheap prototypr racing like the older gen DPs and the current PCs.

[Deleted]

7 cars entered for full season ELMS, all Ginetta Nissans. But the 'Juno' part does not appear on the entry list, wonder if intentional or not.

I suppose couple of the cars missing might do selected/one-off rounds, particularly if other constructors get their act together

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Chiana

7 cars entered for full season ELMS, all Ginetta Nissans. But the 'Juno' part does not appear on the entry list, wonder if intentional or not.

I suppose couple of the cars missing might do selected/one-off rounds, particularly if other constructors get their act together

I hope the design side of Ginetta is as good as the sales side It would be a shame to see this class end up being one make, but I am sure there will be others come along. Perhaps Ginetta is offering "advantageous" pricing?

Anyone have an idea of what the cost is looking to be for a complete season, car, engine, tires, staff etc? Curious to see how much cheaper it actually is than LMP2, if it is.

[Pontlieue]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I hope the design side of Ginetta is as good as the sales side It would be a shame to see this class end up being one make, but I am sure there will be others come along. Perhaps Ginetta is offering "advantageous" pricing?

Anyone have an idea of what the cost is looking to be for a complete season, car, engine, tires, staff etc? Curious to see how much cheaper it actually is than LMP2, if it is.

Ginetta-Juno were the first manufacturer to commit to LMP3, so they're months ahead of anyone else. LAS would possibly be ready for the start of the season, but Riley and Ligier won't have their cars ready until late summer. I think that's the main reason why there are only Ginettas in ELMS this year. I'm optimistic that we'll see more variety in this class next year.

[Deleted]

Do you think they'll start limiting the possible chassis manufacturers here as well? Because as it stands, the LMP3 potentially offers more diversity than the proposed 2017 (ACO) LMP2!

Engine: Possible LMP2 spec TBA, LMP3 spec Nissan
Tires: Possible LMP2 spec TBA, LMP3 spec Michelin
Chassis: Possible LMP2 4x options to choose from, LMP3 unlimited options?
Gearbox: Possible LMP2 ???*, LMP3 spec Oreca
Electronics: Possible LMP2 ???*, LMP3 spec Oreca

* some additional spec components have been mentioned in the past so possibly here as well

[Rcz]

Well gee, the latest news just made LM3 redundant hasn't it?

[Deleted]

Indeedy so. In fact, why just not rebrand LMP3 as LMP2

[MagVanisher]

While we're at it, let ACO combine both LMP2 and LMP3 into a single class for amateurs.

Meanwhile, let LMP1-L be the current LMP2/IMSA Prototype class!

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

... let LMP1-L be the current LMP2/IMSA Prototype class!

That is the answer everyone is or should be looking for. FIAS-ACO can run whatever ... P1-L is the way for IMSA to go.

[TzeiTzei]

Well an LMP2 with a 600bhp engine wouldn't probably be that far off the Rebellion's laptimes.

[blankfile]

One of the new LMP2's with a bespoke racing engine like the rebellion would be a LMP1-L. All those LMP2 are designed as a LMP1 car so they'd probably be right on the pace with rebellion indeed.

[silente]

That is indeed a very good point.

I should do a simulation study replacing the complete powertrain data of an LMP2 car with an LMP1sh powertrain and see what comes out in terms of performance.

I think there are enough data around about LMP1 engine power figures (at least before the fuel flow rules came in) to simulate something and see.

I am pretty easy that it is really the case, that with an LMP1 engine these cars would probably be even quicker than current LMP1-L.
Their level of downforce are impressing, although they show a lower efficiency than a new generation LMP1 (at least the open cockpit ones, have no data about the latest coupes).

[joeb]

Originally Posted by blankfile

One of the new LMP2's with a bespoke racing engine like the rebellion would be a LMP1-L. All those LMP2 are designed as a LMP1 car so they'd probably be right on the pace with rebellion indeed.

On the surface that sounds like it could be true, especially as the leading P2's were often nipping at the R-One's heels this past year. But as Speedking mentioned earlier, the P2's have some comprimises that the R-one doesn't to make parts last longer and meet the price cap. Also it would be tough to make the current P2's the same weight as the R-one without spending a lot of extra money.

[silente]

Originally Posted by joeb

On the surface that sounds like it could be true, especially as the leading P2's were often nipping at the R-One's heels this past year. But as Speedking mentioned earlier, the P2's have some comprimises that the R-one doesn't to make parts last longer and meet the price cap. Also it would be tough to make the current P2's the same weight as the R-one without spending a lot of extra money.

I don't know about the Components life, probably you are right about it, although from a pure performance perspective i don't expect them to be really designed to so different targets (cornering performances are similar, maybe braking ones not...)

Anyway, i still think that even not reducing the LMP2 weights, they could be closed to an LMP1-L with the same engine or, anyway, with a LMP1 like powertrain.

[pablocomics]

We are on March and Ginetta must deliver a big bunch of cars and they not even made a shakedown. There are any news about the car? Just 3 weeks remains until the Paul Ricard tests.

[Deleted]

So 3 cars entered for Ricard test as said on the other thread. Which is around the number that was pretty much always expected, so I guess it's fine.

Meanwhile, I was looking at some of text in the P3 regs
http://www.europeanlemansseries.com/...2_19122014.pdf

There was this line which I found strange

ART 1.1
The Manufacturer must be able to sell within a reasonable time, and subject to firm orders, at least 5 cars every year.

Why would they want to force the chassis manufacturers for such a thing when the market is so niche for the class? Does that include track day cars and such? Theyre shooting themselves into foot, it's only gonna cap the amount of people wanting to get in. Which, I guess is what they're aiming anyway when you look at the leaked P2 proposals...

Also, Speed King asked if there was BoP process between different models (assuming some actually come and challenge Ginetta at some point...) given that they are gonna freeze the regs. Well...

ART 19
The ACO reserves the right to adjust the following elements for each car:
•Minimum weight of the car ;
•Air intake restrictor;
•Fuel tank capacity;
•Any other technical restriction that the ACO may deem necessary ;
The ACO prioritize the reduction of performance of the faster models rather than the increase of performance of the slower models. Performance adjustments are exclusively the responsibility of the ACO.

Which sounds pretty LMGTE esque 'we do what we want' madness especially if you A) consider it's mostly spec B) compare that to current LMP2 theoretical bop, which has changed it's wording to rather mild:

2015 LMP2 Tech regs appendix 1
The tables below (air restrictor diameter and boost pressure limit) are made out in order to balance the performance of the LMP2. In case of force majeure, the Endurance Committee reserves the right to make any change which they will consider necessary as to maintain a fair balance during the Events

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

We are on March and Ginetta must deliver a big bunch of cars and they not even made a shakedown. There are any news about the car? Just 3 weeks remains until the Paul Ricard tests.

Apparently due to run this week. I guess we will soon know.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Chiana

ART 1.1
The Manufacturer must be able to sell within a reasonable time, and subject to firm orders, at least 5 cars every year.

Why would they want to force the chassis manufacturers for such a thing when the market is so niche for the class? Does that include track day cars and such? Theyre shooting themselves into foot, it's only gonna cap the amount of people wanting to get in. Which, I guess is what they're aiming anyway when you look at the leaked P2 proposals...

I suppose it's there to discourage someone wiping their a** with the cost cap and showing up with a heavily developed and dominant car.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

I suppose it's there to discourage someone wiping their a** with the cost cap and showing up with a heavily developed and dominant car.

How exactly could you cheat the 195,000 price tag for every car built + the spare parts that must not exceed 150% of that number? And due to the development freeze you cannot keep upgrading it after registering the chassis.

FIVE cars EVERY year. I don't get it.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Chiana

How exactly could you cheat the 195,000 price tag for every car built + the spare parts that must not exceed 150% of that number? And due to the development freeze you cannot keep upgrading it after registering the chassis.

FIVE cars EVERY year. I don't get it.

Close spec racing = lots of crashing?

[Deleted]

Would be interesting to know how many brand new chassis Oreca as sole spec supplier has sold on yearly basis in FLM/LMPC between 2009-2015.