Ferrari P1 Rumours

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Maelochs: "F1 cannot really be F1 without Ferrari, in the minds of tifosi, Ferrari management, and apparently FIA. If Ferrari didn't enter a team, those seasons would be markwed with asterisks as *Ferrari didn't participate in this year."

Pandamasque Replied: "I'm sorry but that's utter BS. If you erase Ferrari from this F1 season, what would fans notice first and foremost?"

A careful reading of my post indicates that I mentioned everyone but fans---and since FIA, not fans, control F1 ...

"Because whatever Ferrari has in F1 is negated by counterweights, which is something that ACO had a lot less of to oppose Audi's influence! ACO needs several more manufacturers with same kind of commitment just to balance things out. Toyota isn't quite there yet."

In fact ACO/FIA immediately started swinging the balance towards Toyota just to have a counterweight ... Audi doesn't have that much pull anymore with just one other manufacturer, because FIA/ACO Needs two manufacturers to preserve the Manufacturers' World Championship designation. More than two are wonderful, for the show and for security, but not necessary.

The only way Ferrari would have major pull in WEC would be if it was theonluy manufacturer or there were only two ... while in F1 FERRARI GETS EXTRA MONEY JUST FOR BEING FERRARI.

Funny, I don't recall Audi ever getting anything but breaks for diesel power ... and even then, a lot of that had to do with Peugeot also using diesels. Had Peugeot decided to run a petrol car, I think we would have seen the Toyota-era adjustments made as soon as Peugeot decided to try petrol.

We are arguing hypotheticals, which doesn't really get us anywhere, but as far as Ferrari's F1 influence With the FIA (which is what I specifically cited) it is hard to ignore that Ferrari gets extra cash every season just for showing up.

[TF110]

Toyota had 3 liters of petrol added to their tank capacity. Thats not a huge adjustment. If Peugeot went petrol, theyd still run 100 liter tanks (I'm exagerating of course).

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Originally Posted by Maelochs: "F1 cannot really be F1 without Ferrari, in the minds of tifosi, Ferrari management, and apparently FIA. If Ferrari didn't enter a team, those seasons would be markwed with asterisks as *Ferrari didn't participate in this year."

Pandamasque Replied: "I'm sorry but that's utter BS. If you erase Ferrari from this F1 season, what would fans notice first and foremost?"

A careful reading of my post indicates that I mentioned everyone but fans---and since FIA, not fans, control F1 ...

"Because whatever Ferrari has in F1 is negated by counterweights, which is something that ACO had a lot less of to oppose Audi's influence! ACO needs several more manufacturers with same kind of commitment just to balance things out. Toyota isn't quite there yet."

In fact ACO/FIA immediately started swinging the balance towards Toyota just to have a counterweight ... Audi doesn't have that much pull anymore with just one other manufacturer, because FIA/ACO Needs two manufacturers to preserve the Manufacturers' World Championship designation. More than two are wonderful, for the show and for security, but not necessary.

The only way Ferrari would have major pull in WEC would be if it was theonluy manufacturer or there were only two ... while in F1 FERRARI GETS EXTRA MONEY JUST FOR BEING FERRARI.

Funny, I don't recall Audi ever getting anything but breaks for diesel power ... and even then, a lot of that had to do with Peugeot also using diesels. Had Peugeot decided to run a petrol car, I think we would have seen the Toyota-era adjustments made as soon as Peugeot decided to try petrol.

We are arguing hypotheticals, which doesn't really get us anywhere, but as far as Ferrari's F1 influence With the FIA (which is what I specifically cited) it is hard to ignore that Ferrari gets extra cash every season just for showing up.

Next time you watch any Grand Prix just look at the number of fans wearing Ferrari colours or waving flags. They are supported universally by more fans than anyone else by a large margin. The Ferrari brand is one (if not the) most powerful brands in the world - see here:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/22/f...head-of-apple/

So how you can say that a works LMP1 Ferrari would not be a major pull for WEC is beyond me

[Fogelhund]

In particular, Ferrari v Porsche would be a huge Marketing opportunity.

[Acid09]

Certainly makes more sense than Ferrari vs. Redbull.

[Maelochs]

If people would read what I post before replying ...

What I said was that Ferrari would not have as much influence in sports car racing as it does in F1, anent comments by others that Ferrari had a dominating influence in F1, as illustrated by the fact that Ferrari got an extra share of media money just for being Ferrari.

One poster said he feared Ferrari would have undue influence in WEC if it jo0ined; I said it wouldn't, likely.

I didn't say Ferrari was not popular, I never mentioned fan popularity at all. I addressed the fact that the FIA seems tio fidn Ferrari an essential part of F1, and that this is indicated by FIA actions towards Ferrari.

I further said that since ACO/FIA as represented by WEC is already doing fine without Ferrari, it would have no reason to offer Ferrari any extra incentives, as it does in F1. I said that if Ferrari joined WEC I did not and do not believe that Ferrari would have any more lobbyiong power than Audi, Toyota, or Porsche.

If anyone wants to reply to what I actually posted, I could further explain my points. I am sorry, but I cannot explain things which people only imagine I have posted.

[Mal]

Your first post on the subject was certainly a little ambiguous.... so sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick...

...but even so for the reasons set out above a Ferrari works entry to WEC would be a massive coup (bigger than Porsche) for the ACO and sportscar racing with regard to the potential publicity and sponsorship it would bring and therefore there is every reason to suspect that the ACO would bend over backwards to bring them in.

[Aysedasi]

Agreed!

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Agreed!

Well that settles it then! We can expect to see them on the 2014 grid. Well done everybody!

I don't know what the hybrid rules are in F1, but due to my sportscar bias I feel there could be a closer relation from a hybrid P1 to a not yet mentioned F80 super car, than F1 to a not yet mentioned F80 super car.

[Mal]

...Actually... Ferrari joining P1 would also be a big boost for Audi, Porsche and Toyota as it would add more global credibility to the series and certainly for Audi and Toyota - getting beaten by Ferrari is not that bad, but beating them is great.

[Pandamasque]

But, how many of those red-cap wearing people will change colours as soon as certain drivers moves elsewhere?

Originally Posted by Maelochs

A careful reading of my post indicates that I mentioned everyone but fans---and since FIA, not fans, control F1 ...

No, money control F1. And those new tablid-reading kind of fans represent exactly THE kind of money FOM is hunting, which is why we see the changes that we see, these days.

[SpikerJack]

It would be interesting to see an F1 season without ferrari.. Just to know how important is its contribution to the marketing, to the TV audience and to the spectators..

[Mal]

As far as I know the favours Ferrari get in F1 are at the instigation of Bernie and Bernie does nothing unless there is money in it - so he must see Ferrari as a big part of F1's appeal.

[Pandamasque]

I think he's wrong. Bernie isn't always in tune with the times. Some say he doesn't believe in internet and revolving doors....
That said, the foundations for the preferential Ferrari deal were likely laid ~15-10 years ago when F1 used to look very different, being one of just 3 teams that really mattered.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mal

As far as I know the favours Ferrari get in F1 are at the instigation of Bernie and Bernie does nothing unless there is money in it - so he must see Ferrari as a big part of F1's appeal.

As someone posted above, I expect that Ferrari fans make up a large percentage of ticket sales at events and TV viewership. So there has to be a significant financial benefit to the commercial rights holder (CVC Partners/Formula One Group/Bernie?) to have Ferrari participating in F1. It is a different thread for a different forum, but I think a reboot of F1 (along with the risk of a temporary loss of a big player like Ferrari) would not be a bad thing.

I think manufactures have come and gone enough within prototype racing to show that while it has its up and downs, no single participant (Audi, Porsche or Ferrari) will make or break it. In effect prototype racing (as a global championship series) doesn't have the level of series continuity that F1 has had over the past decades. But I am still fearful of someone working a Ferrari like commercial deal in the future if the series continues to be successful.

For those in the know, how is the commercial rights for WEC and LeMons setup? Is it a single entity that owns that like in F1? Is there any type of F1 style revenue sharing? Is there anything analogous to an F1 style "Concord Agreement" in prototype racing?

Richard

[Adam43]

I can live without Ferrari in LMP and could live without them in F1. However given the choice of in or out, I prefer in.

Are they important generally? Well Ferrari provide the odd quote that actually means nothing and this is the 366th post in the thread about it. I think Bernie is onto something!

[Richard C]

As much as I fear their back room politics and string pulling.... I would LOVE to see them back in prototype racing.

Richard

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

For those in the know, how is the commercial rights for WEC and LeMons setup? Is it a single entity that owns that like in F1? Is there any type of F1 style revenue sharing? Is there anything analogous to an F1 style "Concord Agreement" in prototype racing?

- WEC is controlled by some organization called Le Mans Endurance Management, has been also controlling ELMS since the reboot.
- Is there any renevue to be shared in the first place?
- I don't think so, just because never heard of anything like that. I doubt there would be any need... at least at this point of the series.

[Maelochs]

"...but even so for the reasons set out above a Ferrari works entry to WEC would be a massive coup (bigger than Porsche) for the ACO and sportscar racing with regard to the potential publicity and sponsorship it would bring and therefore there is every reason to suspect that the ACO would bend over backwards to bring them in."

I mostly agree.

As for "bend over backwards" I don't see ACO/FIA giving Ferrari so many breaks that the other cars are uncompetitive. After all, the 458 Italia got every Negative BoP adjustment imagineable.

Would ACO and FIA benefit form having Ferrari on board? Absolutely. Given that the series has such spotty TV coverage and the races are about as TV-Unfriendly as could possibly be, do I think adding Ferrari would mean a huge commercial surge for WEC? Not really.

I am sure a lot more tickets would be sold for the Euro rounds, but there aren't many of those any more. I am sure Italian TV would want to pick up some races ... or maybe not, more likely highlight packages, which would sorely disappoint true sports car fans.

FOM makes the majority of its money off of TV, which simply won't happen with six-hour races. I understand that cricket is popular in some locales, and those matches run all day, sometimes for several days, but those are established fans of an established televised sport.

WEC is not really a televised sport, and while there are some established sports car fans, the number is only a fraction compared to cricket fans, and the shifting nature of the sport (most races ending up in very distant lands, not much continuity in scheduling, and the frequent breakdown of sanctioning bodies/rules packages) mean that it is hard for fandom to pass down through generations.

I want Ferrari to return as much as any of you do. I fear Ferrari's political pull less than some. As another poster pointed out, Ferrari is not one of the only three real F1 teams any more--I wouldn't be surprised if, after Bernie's relinquishing of the scepter, the next FIA deal doesn't strip Ferrari of its extra benefits. And I firmly believe Toyota, Porsche, Audi, and whoever else can lobby just as well as Ferrari.

Yes, there are a lot of Ferrari fans at some F1 events ... but that's mostly a bonus for track owners. TV is where the money is made, and as I recall, there is another thread on herer discussing how there is almost no sports car coverage in Itakly--despite Ferrari having been active in sports car racing since its inception. I don't see and LMP1 Ferrari transforming WEC into a money-making TV blockbuster.

P3/4, 512S, 512M, 312PB, 333SP--those were what Ferrari was to me when I first got interested in the sport and through the next several years. I'd love to see Ferrari build more cars like those. But just as Ferrari didn't always dominate sports car racing back then, I doubt Ferrari would today.

Hopefully we will find out soon.

[Bandicoot17]

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Usually these types of camo don't confuse me too much but with this one at this angle I can't tell up from down.

[Gingers4Justice]

I think that massive rear wing at the high angle could be an attempt to test an engine with the levels of drag you might get from a high-downforce car? Could be a good way to test fuel economy.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I think that massive rear wing at the high angle could be an attempt to test an engine with the levels of drag you might get from a high-downforce car? Could be a good way to test fuel economy.

Plus, that car has to weight 50% more than the F1 so the engine should really be getting a workout.

[seanyb505]

I know Ferrari has a history of using different bodies to test upcoming projects (Enzo prototype that looked like a 348??), but it looks like there more going on in the pic above to make me think they are testing this car for real.

A few things that stand out to me:
1. Why put dive planes on something that is likely not the end result? Seems like that would give you irrelevant data as the design of the body progresses.
2. Why put camo on something that is likely not close to the end result anyway? This body is disguised because Ferrari wants this particular body disguised.
3. Other than the wing, not much of it looks like a hack job.
4. 458 GTE rims

IMHO, this looks like a GT/track version of the LaFerrari. I would say since Ferrari has been creating GT/track cars that don't adhere to a ruleset (599XX, FXX, FXX Evo, etc.) that is likely all we are seeing here. The next private track event Ferrari that you can buy but can't take home.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

IMHO, this looks like a GT/track version of the LaFerrari. I would say since Ferrari has been creating GT/track cars that don't adhere to a ruleset (599XX, FXX, FXX Evo, etc.) that is likely all we are seeing here. The next private track event Ferrari that you can buy but can't take home.

Agree, unless someone somewhere (SRO?) is tying to reinvent the late 90s GT1 ruleset.