FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

What babies? You should be thanking these people for basically wasting their money on an expensive hobby.

Are they gentlemans or Am's learning?

The first is totally unneeded on a international champ that should be reserved for semi-factory teams with PRO lineups, for anything else there is the Gumball 3000 for showing of money or the AM cars championships, corse clienti, supertrofeo, BES for racing......

The second for me should be promoted to the pro class and then let them learn there, assuming there is space remaining from semi-factory PRO only teams.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

How are they "allowing" for that exactly? There used to be all-pro-cars in the past, and not just a few of them. And whatever the teams that even run Pro and Am make from running the Am-cars is certainly not enough to fund the all-Pro cars. So I really fail to see a connection between the creation of the Am-class and the existance of all-Pro lineups.

Please tell me what year(s) had more than 5 all-pro GT lineups (3 drivers).

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Are they gentlemans or Am's learning?

The first is totally unneeded on a international champ that should be reserved for semi-factory teams with PRO lineups, for anything else there is the Gumball 3000 for showing of money or the AM cars championships, corse clienti, supertrofeo, BES for racing......

The second for me should be promoted to the pro class and then let them learn there, assuming there is space remaining from semi-factory PRO only teams.

Where does it say that international = pro?

Let's go your route, urdragon, and then let's see how long the WEC survives.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Please tell me what year(s) had more than 5 all-pro GT lineups (3 drivers).

Between Corvette and Aston there were 4 all-pro-cars already, Oreca ran two full-pro Saleens for a bit as well and often some of Aston's customers (Labre, BMS come to mind) ran all-pro line ups as well. Down in GT2 Ferrari usually had at least one, often two pro cars run by Risi or AF Corse from 2007. Panoz usually had an all-pro-line up as well, as had at least one of the Spykers.

For 2007 I am counting between 12 and 15 pro-line ups between the two GT-classes, depending on what definition of Pro you want to use. http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...html?sort=Grid

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Let's go your route, urdragon, and then let's see how long the WEC survives.

If the costs are kept low, we can allways return to this current wec cause current WEC teams without funds would do ELMS/ALMS/ASLMS.

I don't see why not trying, as I said in my first post thanks to LMP1 now the WEC is the 2nd champ in the world in repercussion and now the factory teams are stronger than EVER due to ***high GT cars sales due to polarization of the classes, the GT3 class is cheaper than the GTE, there is plenty of GT3 cars around the world and their spares cheaper, finding pro teams shouldn't be hard with the same budget of any GT1 teams had for sprints for 6H races now, with half the running costs and more "branding"***.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Between Corvette and Aston there were 4 all-pro-cars already, Oreca ran two full-pro Saleens for a bit as well and often some of Aston's customers (Labre, BMS come to mind) ran all-pro line ups as well. Down in GT2 Ferrari usually had at least one, often two pro cars run by Risi or AF Corse from 2007. Panoz usually had an all-pro-line up as well, as had at least one of the Spykers.

For 2007 I am counting between 12 and 15 pro-line ups between the two GT-classes, depending on what definition of Pro you want to use. http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...html?sort=Grid

I was only talking about GT2, sorry if I didn't include that. The number of all-pro lineups has steady increased. It may not be entirely due to the creation of the Am class, but it certainly has had an effect.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Salamus

I was only talking about GT2, sorry if I didn't include that. The number of all-pro lineups has steady increased. It may not be entirely due to the creation of the Am class, but it certainly has had an effect.

What really had an effect there was the abolition of GT1... I don't think there was a net gain in professional GT-cars, and back then, there were pro-line ups at the sharp end of two classes, not just one.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

If the costs are kept low, we can allways return to this current wec cause current WEC teams without funds would do ELMS/ALMS/ASLMS.

Keeping costs low is the goal for any series, but how many are actually successful. WEC teams want to participate in the WEC.

Originally Posted by urdragon

I don't see why not trying, as I said in my first post thanks to LMP1 now the WEC is the 2nd champ in the world in repercussion and now the factory teams are stronger than EVER due to ***high GT cars sales due to polarization of the classes, the GT3 class is cheaper than the GTE, there is plenty of GT3 cars around the world and their spares cheaper, finding pro teams shouldn't be hard with the same budget of any GT1 teams had for sprints for 6H races now, with half the running costs and more "branding"***.

Sorry, I don't understand.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

What really had an effect there was the abolition of GT1...

Yes, I agree with this.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I don't think there was a net gain in professional GT-cars, and back then, there were pro-line ups at the sharp end of two classes, not just one.

GT2 rarely had all pro-lineups. Maybe 2 or 3 a year.

[Speed-King]

GT2 rarely had all pro-lineups. Maybe 2 or 3 a year.

Let's see:

2005: 2 cars (Peterson/White, Panoz) of 14. (GT1 =9)

2006: 2 cars (Spyker, Panoz) of 15. (GT1 =12)

2007: 3 cars (Panoz, Spyker, Risi) of 13 (GT1 =16)

2008 4 cars (AF Corse, Risi, Virgo, BMS) of 13 (GT1 =10)

2009: 5 cars (Felbermayer, AF Corse, Snoras/Spyker, JMW, BMS) of 17 (GT1 = 6 )

2010: 11 cars (Corvette x2, Felbermayer, BMW x2, RSR, Risi, Snoras/Spyker, JMW, AF Corse, BMS) of 18 (GT1 = 8, but those were of course the new style GT1s)

2011: had - suppossedly - 18 Pro-cars, but a bunch of line ups were actually not all-pro, I am counting 12 all-pro-line ups among those. (Introduction of GTE-Am)

2012: GTE-Pro down to 10 cars, however with all of them having all pro-driver crews.

2013: 12 cars in GTE-Pro, 11 of those with true all pro line ups, as things stand right now

So the big increase actually coincides with the decline of GT1. With GT1 falling by the wayside, GT2 steps into the limelight and with more attention for the class, more teams can afford running all pro line ups. The introduction of GTE-Am has actually not made a difference compared to the last year before its introduction.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Let's see:



So the big increase actually coincides with the decline of GT1. With GT1 falling by the wayside, GT2 steps into the limelight and with more attention for the class, more teams can afford running all pro line ups. The introduction of GTE-Am has actually not made a difference compared to the last year before its introduction.

Like I said before, I agree with you.

However, I still believe that GT-Am has made a positive influence.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Keeping costs low is the goal for any series, but how many are actually successful. WEC teams want to participate in the WEC.

Okay but if they don't have enough money for full PROs lineup they must conform with ELMS, ALMS, AsLMS if there are other teams that can permit.

(Which is the subject of this discussion, what would happen if those teams appear in the so called "Unified class/platform")

Originally Posted by Salamus

Sorry, I don't understand.

Richers, more Rich, poors more poor, Audi,Ferrari, Porsche... Road cars Sales Boosted, more money to pay more works drivers (quantity) in their sportcar division, and also to lend them for racing at Semi-factory teams, and some involvement (By factory) in small teams like Reiter will be needed.

In paralel, more very Rich people, more rich Am's, more youngsters to pay PRO-AM series like BES, more teams make money such as AF corse with 3-4 AM's at bes, with this money can sustain their works GT campaign at WEC driven by The best ferrari drivers lend by Ferrari themselves, so no drivers fees to pay.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Like I said before, I agree with you.

However, I still believe that GT-Am has made a positive influence.

By putting about 10 more cars on the grid at the expense of danger on the race course? Some of the amateur drivers shouldn't be out racing with LMP1 cars capable of 200+ MPH. Yes, it put more cars on the grid, but moving to GT3, a less expensive version of GTE which runs about the same lap times, would eradicate the problem. Pro drivers out the wazoo... there would be no need for the Tracy Krohn's of the racing world anymore. Positive influence = putting more cars on the track. But I think the net influence has not ever been on the positive side. Just my two cents... don't take it personally.

EDIT: Just because of a switch to all-GT3 doesn't diminish in any way the "international prestige" quality of the WEC. Just because GTE is now GT3 doesn't mean we have to demote the WEC to some crappy, low-budget, NASCAR-esque regional series. The WEC can still run Shanghai, Bahrain, Sao Paulo, Fuji, Austin, etc. if the WEC decides to go the GT3 route. And the fields will be bigger, too --- I can guarantee it.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Okay but if they don't have enough money for full PROs lineup they must conform with ELMS, ALMS, AsLMS if there are other teams that can permit.

(Which is the subject of this discussion, what would happen if those teams appear in the so called "Unified class/platform")

Please tell me which teams can run full pro lineups and race around the world.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Beetle

By putting about 10 more cars on the grid at the expense of danger on the race course? Some of the amateur drivers shouldn't be out racing with LMP1 cars capable of 200+ MPH. Yes, it put more cars on the grid, but moving to GT3, a less expensive version of GTE which runs about the same lap times, would eradicate the problem. Pro drivers out the wazoo... there would be no need for the Tracy Krohn's of the racing world anymore. Positive influence = putting more cars on the track. But I think the net influence has not ever been on the positive side. Just my two cents... don't take it personally.

EDIT: Just because of a switch to all-GT3 doesn't diminish in any way the "international prestige" quality of the WEC. Just because GTE is now GT3 doesn't mean we have to demote the WEC to some crappy, low-budget, NASCAR-esque regional series. The WEC can still run Shanghai, Bahrain, Sao Paulo, Fuji, Austin, etc. if the WEC decides to go the GT3 route. And the fields will be bigger, too --- I can guarantee it.

These amateurs have been racing at Le Mans before the introduction of the Am class. The recent incidents between prototypes and GTs can be more attributed to the lack of vision of the prototypes.

Nobody said the WEC should ditch its current schedule . But the fields won't get bigger, unless the WEC/Le Mans loses all support from regional series (ie: ALMS, ELMS).

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Please tell me which teams can run full pro lineups and race around the world.

My guess would be:

JRM With Nissan GTR GT3. It did it with LMP1 so why not?

MVDS With BMW Z4. For me the most powerful non audi lineup on BES. Already considering, funds for that homemade-car and participate in al important gt3 24h races.

AUDI R8 WRT has tons of cars in european series so they have budget (Phoenix too).

Aston martin is with pro lineups in every 24h race, did also GT1 a yers before with pro lineups, currently doing wec.

AF Corse Ferrari. Tons of PRO AM cars providing funds, currently doing wec.

Lamborghini Reiter (with lamborghini additional funds) They've got an European pro decent lineup would need only funds to 6h races and travel round the world.

Mclaren, Hexis hasn't funds for it so mclaren would have to put money, loeb will not have interest in 24h rces.

All inkl returning to mercedes?

Porsche Manthey?

[nobster]

I would welcome all these teams at Le Mans and other venues.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

My guess would be:

JRM With Nissan GTR GT3. It did it with LMP1 so why not?

MVDS With BMW Z4. For me the most powerful non audi lineup on BES. Already considering, funds for that homemade-car and participate in al important gt3 24h races.

AUDI R8 WRT has tons of cars in european series so they have budget (Phoenix too).

Aston martin is with pro lineups in every 24h race, did also GT1 a yers before with pro lineups, currently doing wec.

AF Corse Ferrari. Tons of PRO AM cars providing funds, currently doing wec.

Lamborghini Reiter (with lamborghini additional funds) They've got an European pro decent lineup would need only funds to 6h races and travel round the world.

Mclaren, Hexis hasn't funds for it so mclaren would have to put money, loeb will not have interest in 24h rces.

All inkl returning to mercedes?

Porsche Manthey?

Teams always have goals but they don't always happen. Just because some teams have said they want to be in a world championship or some teams are being supported by a manufacturer, doesn't mean they will be in the WEC. Things change every year. This unification isn't happening for a couple years.

JRM - They were in P1 for 1 year. They didn't have enough funds to continue in the WEC.

Marc VDS - They have been a very successful team in Europe but I doubt they can travel around the world year after year.

WRT - Could enter WEC but would Audi really support a GT program with a P1 program?

Reiter - Can't see this happening.

Hexis - Maybe. Who knows.

All-Inkl - Are happy in Europe for now.

[Speed-King]

All-Inkl - Are happy in Europe for now.

Not quite, they are doing WTCC right now. And if I remember correctly, specifically citing the series world championship status as their reason for going there rather than into BES or FIA GT.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Not quite, they are doing WTCC right now. And if I remember correctly, specifically citing the series world championship status as their reason for going there rather than into BES or FIA GT.

I didn't know that, thanks.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Beetle

By putting about 10 more cars on the grid at the expense of danger on the race course? Some of the amateur drivers shouldn't be out racing with LMP1 cars capable of 200+ MPH. Yes, it put more cars on the grid, but moving to GT3, a less expensive version of GTE which runs about the same lap times, would eradicate the problem. Pro drivers out the wazoo... there would be no need for the Tracy Krohn's of the racing world anymore. Positive influence = putting more cars on the track. But I think the net influence has not ever been on the positive side. Just my two cents... don't take it personally.

EDIT: Just because of a switch to all-GT3 doesn't diminish in any way the "international prestige" quality of the WEC. Just because GTE is now GT3 doesn't mean we have to demote the WEC to some crappy, low-budget, NASCAR-esque regional series. The WEC can still run Shanghai, Bahrain, Sao Paulo, Fuji, Austin, etc. if the WEC decides to go the GT3 route. And the fields will be bigger, too --- I can guarantee it.

Amateurs are completely necessary, I'm afraid. They're part of the history of the race. From the very first Le Mans, the race was pretty much entirely propped up by Lords and Counts and aristocrats with nothing better to do than have a jolly good time in a motor car.

You simply can't have a grid of 165 drivers, with all of them to a professional standard. That's not only unrealistic, but also bordering on impossible. Would there ever be 165 drivers available that weekend anyway?

GT3 wouldn't put an end to the Tracy Krohns of this world. The Tracy Krohns will just race GT3 cars instead. Because the Tracy Krohns have their racing licenses, they're wealthy, and they want to race.

Le Mans will run for the 81st time this year. In all the other 80 races, there's been plenty of Amateurs racing in the smaller classes (and, in fact, in the top ones as well).

As someone else said earlier, lack of visibility in the prototypes has been the major cause of accidents.

[Speed-King]

Le Mans will run for the 81st time this year. In 78 of the other 80 races, there's been plenty of Amateurs racing in the smaller classes (and, in fact, in the top ones as well) without the need for a bespoke amateur class.

There, fixed it for you.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Amateurs are completely necessary, I'm afraid. They're part of the history of the race. From the very first Le Mans, the race was pretty much entirely propped up by Lords and Counts and aristocrats with nothing better to do than have a jolly good time in a motor car.

You simply can't have a grid of 165 drivers, with all of them to a professional standard. That's not only unrealistic, but also bordering on impossible. Would there ever be 165 drivers available that weekend anyway?

GT3 wouldn't put an end to the Tracy Krohns of this world. The Tracy Krohns will just race GT3 cars instead. Because the Tracy Krohns have their racing licenses, they're wealthy, and they want to race.

Le Mans will run for the 81st time this year. In all the other 80 races, there's been plenty of Amateurs racing in the smaller classes (and, in fact, in the top ones as well).

As someone else said earlier, lack of visibility in the prototypes has been the major cause of accidents.

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L.P.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

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Is that an exclamation mark of disapproval, or agreement?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Is that an exclamation mark of disapproval, or agreement?

Hmm, is not an exclamation point a point of emphasis? As such how would that change the original statement? Now had it been a question mark...... but I digress.... The short answer is, it is in agreement with!








L.P.