[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Close but pants is my final analysis.

Absolute Pants.

Originally Posted by Matador

I think Toyota will hit about 3:23:750. Will Ferrari be faster? Possibly. The car looks a touch faster over a single lap than the Toyotas, but it looks absolutely on the ragged edge while doing it.


Hyperpole is gonna be quite entertaining. Looks like the Porsches sold some bags of sand.

That 3:22 looked absolutely effortless. They had time in the tank. smh.

[Adam43]

Closest grid for the top class for years!

Whatever the situation someone will be fastest.

We’ve moved from this is an outrage they are giving it to Toyota. A really odd few comments after the recent BoP change that they’re giving it to Peugeot. Now we’ve got they’re giving it to Ferrari. Wonderful.

I don’t have the data really, but based purely on lap time (which is not the driver), I won’t have made these recent changes. But I still think it is pretty close. Let’s see.

It should be remembered that the relative change between Ferrari and Toyota was smaller. It did not make a difference to this pole. Based on lap time maybe you can argue you’d go the other way.

I think the bigger thing that tipped it to Ferrari was probably the tyre warmer rule. If we want the conspiracy theory - that’s where to put your efforts.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Based on RL17 feedback. Instead of expressing the relative pace as a %, it is expressed as difference in lap time at Le Mans. Assuming a 210s nominal lap time.

This is meant to be more of a race pace type thing, but based on the qualifying session and hyperpole (compared separately) how did this work out. i.e. how bad was it?

Manufacturer	kg change	New relative pace (s)	Qualifying	Hyperpole
Ferrari	24	0	0	0
Toyota	37	0.9	0.3	1.5
Cadillac	11	1.2	0.7	1.9
Porsche	3	2.2	0.6	1.5
Peugeot	0	2.8	2.0
Glickenhaus	0	3.5	3.3
Vanwall	0	7.6	4.5

Fastest car of manufacturer v. faster time. I have used Bourdais fast lap even though it was deleted because the fire caused the red flag. Any times that were deleted due to track limits are omitted here.

Vanwall data from Spa was compromised by its crash making it look worse than it was. Although looking at the lap times throughout all practice race pace might be off quite a bit.

The order is not bad, I'll give it that.

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Closest grid for the top class for years!

Whatever the situation someone will be fastest.

We’ve moved from this is an outrage they are giving it to Toyota. A really odd few comments after the recent BoP change that they’re giving it to Peugeot. Now we’ve got they’re giving it to Ferrari. Wonderful.

I don’t have the data really, but based purely on lap time (which is not the driver), I won’t have made these recent changes. But I still think it is pretty close. Let’s see.

It should be remembered that the relative change between Ferrari and Toyota was smaller. It did not make a difference to this pole. Based on lap time maybe you can argue you’d go the other way.

I think the bigger thing that tipped it to Ferrari was probably the tyre warmer rule. If we want the conspiracy theory - that’s where to put your efforts.

The nature of racing nowadays really - if your favourite wins they are the best ..if they lose then BOP is pants
If a race does not have 10 cars fighting for first position in the last corner of the last lap then BOP is pants

If a team is better at set up or tire management then BOP is pants
If a driver crashes then it means BOP is pants as the others did not crash

I see BOP quite ok - lets not forget Toyota only ones with Le Mans experience and this counts a lot (look at Audi defeating faster competition in non bop times)
Peugeot seems to be a mess so cannot compare and Vanwall and the Glick do not have resources to match the others.

Only thing is the LMDHs and makes me think if being based on customer chasis that needs to be adaptable to multiple suspension architectures and engines and using a spec hybrid will always be a compromise against a bespoke racing car made from the ground up for one purpose. I do not think this can be managed without big BOP concessions to the LMDHs

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Fastest car of manufacturer v. faster time. I have used Bourdais fast lap even though it was deleted because the fire caused the red flag. Any times that were deleted due to track limits are omitted here.

Should be 1.5 for Porsche in hyper section (Nasr's lap).

[kartman24]

There seems to be a bit of complaining from Toyota supporters about the BOP change for Le Mans but i am sure they will be there at the end of the race, either winning it or challenging for it. I think it will make for a closer more exciting race. Gets a thumbs up from me pre race.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Should be 1.5 for Porsche in hyper section (Nasr's lap).

thanks. I’ve changed..

And this probably demonstrates what weve seen though the week. Porsche are closer than they were. All season they have been inching towards the top 2.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by kartman24

There seems to be a bit of complaining from Toyota supporters about the BOP change for Le Mans but i am sure they will be there at the end of the race, either winning it or challenging for it. I think it will make for a closer more exciting race. Gets a thumbs up from me pre race.

I'm not a Toyota supporter at all. I am just trying to see things from their point of view. I'd love to see Caddy do well - they are who I am rooting for.

[veeten]

Originally Posted by Adam43

thanks. I’ve changed..

Nooooooo... don't go changing. We like you, just the way you are.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

I see BOP quite ok - lets not forget Toyota only ones with Le Mans experience and this counts a lot (look at Audi defeating faster competition in non bop times)
Peugeot seems to be a mess so cannot compare and Vanwall and the Glick do not have resources to match the others.

I've seen this reported on the official WEC stream as well, but that is completely discounting the fact that Glick has a perfect finishing record the past two years with these exact cars. Both cars finished 370+ laps last year too.

And as Adam said a few posts ago, Audi won races without being the fastest, so a good reliability run for Glick could do them wonders in the overall finishing order.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by kartman24

There seems to be a bit of complaining from Toyota supporters about the BOP change for Le Mans but i am sure they will be there at the end of the race, either winning it or challenging for it. I think it will make for a closer more exciting race. Gets a thumbs up from me pre race.

To me it's relative. I have no issue with them attempting to reign in most of the field to come up to par with Toyota. My problem is that The Ferrari especially is quicker over a lap (yes, it's an endurance race.. I know), so they have no business (maybe pun intended) being able to run that much lighter than Toyota. Say for example we gave all of the hypercar class teams spec LMP2s, are we then going to BOP teams for experience, efficiency, effective strategy and consistency?


I also think that Porsche shouldn't be that much lighter than the Caddys, but Chinos vs Jeans I guess.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Matador

To me it's relative. I have no issue with them attempting to reign in most of the field to come up to par with Toyota. My problem is that The Ferrari especially is quicker over a lap (yes, it's an endurance race.. I know), so they have no business (maybe pun intended) being able to run that much lighter than Toyota. Say for example we gave all of the hypercar class teams spec LMP2s, are we then going to BOP teams for experience, efficiency, effective strategy and consistency?


I also think that Porsche shouldn't be that much lighter than the Caddys, but Chinos vs Jeans I guess.

How fast would Toyota and Ferrari have been if they didn't have that extra weight added? Toyota thought it was worth more than a second, but would have been interesting to see just how quick they could have been.

[Adam43]

For reference. The Ferrari is 16kg lighter than the Toyota. This has increased from 5kg at Sebring and 3kg at Portimao/Spa. Toyota has 3kW more power.
The Porsche is 5kg heavier than the Cadillac. This has come down from 7kg since Spa.

Recent changes:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=254
Power is here: (it didn’t change for Le Mans)

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...24#post4155324

Overall I think the approach should be match the cars. Let the experience etc… win over, as Matador suggests. And I think the ACO are trying to do that. From what I can see (which is just lap times, top speed, and car attitude on track, no car measured data), I don’t think the last change was needed. But I accept I don’t have all the information and it is a hard job to do. I do think a hyper to LMDh was needed FWIW.

It is a hard job, and my disagreement is small. So far this week it is looking like a good job. I’d give it a B+.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

For reference. The Ferrari is 16kg lighter than the Toyota. This has increased from 5kg at Sebring and 3kg at Portimao/Spa. Toyota has 3kW more power.
The Porsche is 5kg heavier than the Cadillac. This has come down from 7kg since Spa.

Recent changes:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=254
Power is here: (it didn’t change for Le Mans)
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...39#post4159039

Overall I think the approach should be match the cars. Let the experience etc… win over, as Matador suggests. And I think the ACO are trying to do that. From what I can see (which is just lap times, top speed, and car attitude on track, no car measured data), I don’t think the last change was needed. But I accept I don’t have all the information and it is a hard job to do. I do think a hyper to LMDh was needed FWIW.

It is a hard job, and my disagreement is small. So far this week it is looking like a good job. I’d give it a B+.

Corduroy then?


All in all I agree with your over arching assessment. The timing and method of implementation is borderline distasteful though. Anything for a show but I do hope that the race will end up being one for the ages as well as entertaining as we the fans hope (and finishing with a Toyota on the top step of the podium for me ).


As an aside, I wonder what these hypercars could do with their hybrid systems unleashed (No minimum speed awd engagement, no restricted power... so ball bark 900hp ICE+ Electric motors combined). I do believe by 2025 we could see Le Mans lap times dip back under the 3:20 mark even without such liberties.

[Toyotats03OUS]

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/ne...appy/10480437/

Toyota feels years of hard work “nullified” by Le Mans rule changes

Toyota is not happy with the BOP, but specially how it was implemented, right before le mans.

They are talking about how there were teams whining very loud to the FIA.

The team main complaint is how the FIA implements new rules and changes them once someone cries about it.


Toyota Gazoo Racing Europe technical director Pascal Vasselon confirmed that the team had not run on this year’s Michelin tyres with normal tyre warmer use prior to last weekend's Test Day.

[Adam43]

That will be interesting. I don’t think that we get back down to 3:20 in such a short time under this ruleset (unless the ACO allow the higher power, or some other change).

Just for reference the power curves maximum these cars are currently allowed is 520kW (Glickenhaus) which is just under 700hp.

[Adam43]

I didn’t think they were allowed to say anything about it

[Toyotats03OUS]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I didn’t think they were allowed to say anything about it

they probably figured that if the FIA is going to break the rules so are they (Toyota) lol

I do not blame them, they are right for being upset. I can not imagine building and setting up a car based on rules and regulations that were agreed upon, for later those rules and regulations to be change in the very last minute of the most important race in the Calander - and expect a team, that it took them months to come up with the right set up to make the adjustments in 5 days!

[JHamilton]

Given the weather, I doubt it will matter anyway.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Just for reference the power curves maximum these cars are currently allowed is 520kW (Glickenhaus) which is just under 700hp.

Glick was already running at 533 kW (Monza 2022) so I think they can be flexible with power if needed (the ACO I mean).

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

I do not blame them, they are right for being upset. I can not imagine building and setting up a car based on rules and regulations that were agreed upon, for later those rules and regulations to be change in the very last minute of the most important race in the Calander - and expect a team, that it took them months to come up with the right set up to make the adjustments in 5 days!

Agree. Welcome to Geneva… Just hope tyre warmers they have will work well. I wonder if the gonzo forcing to drive a race car on cold slicks ever drove anything else than a Prius. Not surprised by Bibendum attitude tho…

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

they probably figured that if the FIA is going to break the rules so are they (Toyota) lol

I do not blame them, they are right for being upset. I can not imagine building and setting up a car based on rules and regulations that were agreed upon, for later those rules and regulations to be change in the very last minute of the most important race in the Calander - and expect a team, that it took them months to come up with the right set up to make the adjustments in 5 days!

Yea I don’t get the angle or how it’s been justified. We have seen in past races that the Ferrari is about on par with the Toyota - certainly over a single lap, so to slap 30kg of extra weight on the Toyota and a smaller amount on the Ferrari (24kg was it?) doesn’t make sense to me from a sporting standpoint.

Has there been a justification statement or a clarification on the BOP changes?

[Toyotats03OUS]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Yea I don’t get the angle or how it’s been justified. We have seen in past races that the Ferrari is about on par with the Toyota - certainly over a single lap, so to slap 30kg of extra weight on the Toyota and a smaller amount on the Ferrari (24kg was it?) doesn’t make sense to me from a sporting standpoint.

Has there been a justification statement or a clarification on the BOP changes?

37 kg for toyota 512kw 1080 kg total
24 kg for ferrari 509 kw 1064 kg total

No, and there won't be one. The FIA is not going to say that other teams were crying.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Glick was already running at 533 kW (Monza 2022) so I think they can be flexible with power if needed (the ACO I mean).

Hmm



Vanwall Hypercar suffering loss of power in Le Mans heat

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Toyotats03OUS

37 kg for toyota 512kw 1080 kg total
24 kg for ferrari 509 kw 1064 kg total

No, and there won't be one. The FIA is not going to say that other teams were crying.

I linked to an article in another thread, but apparently Peugeot weren't happy Toyota was allowed to 'update' it's car for this year. Not sure if that's the extent of the complaints. But I think its going to be a great race and hopefully it's an actual race.