FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[SamBinfield]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The point should be made that it is always the responsibility of the applicant to show why a car is in the specification that is presented. The overriding qualification is that the car must have competed - legally and provably - in a event that was on the FIA International Calendar of that year. Therefore there would have been regulations that the car had to comply with and usually - because it was an International event - there would be photographs and documentation that is discoverable. Usually.......

Thanks - understood regarding that the onus is on the applicant to prove the case - however, what happens in the case that the historical evidence is not exhaustive? Though I stand to be corrected, it seems unlikely to me that every last detail required for the HTP application can be identified explicitly for all non-homologated cars that competed in FIA International events. If it is the case that explicit evidence for some (presumably more minor) details cannot be found, are those cars then unable to be granted HTPs, or instead is an argument made based upon reasoning of partial evidence? Perhaps this might be something along the lines of a car being noted to have alloy callipers from a particular manufacturer, fitted to a particular upright which is known, and so the model of the calliper and in turn the number/size of pistons can be inferred - for the sake of example.

That said, maybe the situation described has not ever actually happened- you’ll have to forgive me, but being mostly away from the historic racing world this year has given me a lot of time to read old posts and non-homologated cars are an interesting case that I haven’t yet had very much to do with 🙂

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by SamBinfield

Thanks - understood regarding that the onus is on the applicant to prove the case - however, what happens in the case that the historical evidence is not exhaustive? Though I stand to be corrected, it seems unlikely to me that every last detail required for the HTP application can be identified explicitly for all non-homologated cars that competed in FIA International events. If it is the case that explicit evidence for some (presumably more minor) details cannot be found, are those cars then unable to be granted HTPs, or instead is an argument made based upon reasoning of partial evidence? Perhaps this might be something along the lines of a car being noted to have alloy callipers from a particular manufacturer, fitted to a particular upright which is known, and so the model of the calliper and in turn the number/size of pistons can be inferred - for the sake of example.

That said, maybe the situation described has not ever actually happened- you’ll have to forgive me, but being mostly away from the historic racing world this year has given me a lot of time to read old posts and non-homologated cars are an interesting case that I haven’t yet had very much to do with ��

You may understand that what you think may not be proven by the lack of homologation records can actually be through other documentation. This relates to manufacturers invoice, records, the fact that many kit car were as an example using parts from production cars, etc.

Also and with the World Wide Web having become very big, many things have come out, forums, photographic archives, catalogues, plenty of info which have helped either prove a specification or actually to turn "belief" into a clear rejection.

[Peter Mallett]

A reminder since, somewhat inconveniently, I've just discovered my MGB papers had expired:

A newly issued HTP will remain valid for 10 years from the year of issue; for example, an
HTP issued during 2017 will be valid until 31st December 2027.

Previously issued HTPs will have a valid life of either five or 10 years, dependent on when it
was first issued, the following is a guide to the validity of previously issued HTPs:

HTPs issued prior to 2011 with an FIA Identity Number up to 34096 will expire on 31st
December 2016.

HTPs issued in 2012 with an FIA Identity Number of 34097-35020 will expire on 31st
December 2017.

HTPs issued in 2013 with an FIA Identity Number of the format XXXXX-13 on a 12-page
form will expire on 31st December 2018

HTPs issued in 2014 with an FIA Identity Number of the format XXXXX-14 on a 12-page
form will expire on 31st December 2019

HTPs issued from 2013 onwards on a 26-page form are valid for 10 years from the year of
issue.

I had thought that all HTPs were extended to 10 years. Then I discovered the above notes on the Motorsport UK website. As you can see they've tried to make it as complicated as possible so not only do you need to look at the number and the date, you also need to count the pages!

Anyway I've stumped up the 650 quid and now got a new number. The car will be inspected in September, provided it survives the Classic intact.

[Oneball]

I’m considering colours for my period G2 GTS car and thinking ahead to HTP application. If I wish to paint the car green with a white stripe for example, is this a “livery” that the period photo on page 2 of the HTP must show?

Thanks Tim

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Oneball

I’m considering colours for my period G2 GTS car and thinking ahead to HTP application. If I wish to paint the car green with a white stripe for example, is this a “livery” that the period photo on page 2 of the HTP must show?

Thanks Tim

Welcome Tim! If no-one replies promptly on here you may have to clarify with the MSUK Technical department or one of their HTP Inspectors regarding the ‘period photo’ requirement. It may only be if you want to replicate a period scheme or have a car that ran in period in a particular scheme, but others will know more precisely!

[Oneball]

Thanks Mike, having a factory coloured Mini for 20 years I’ve never really thought about whether fancy colours are allowed and seeing as G2 is the 1970s it needs to be a bit wild!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Welcome Tim! If no-one replies promptly on here you may have to clarify with the MSUK Technical department or one of their HTP Inspectors regarding the ‘period photo’ requirement. It may only be if you want to replicate a period scheme or have a car that ran in period in a particular scheme, but others will know more precisely!

I can confirm that a green car with a stripe will not be considered as a livery and will not be a HTP question. However, the period specification picture on Page 2 must show the technical specification of the car presented including body shape, accessories and all to be matching.

But a period run scheme can be and if used, has to be the way it used to be.

[Oneball]

Thanks Duddha.

That's really helpful, I was going round in circles with the MSA as they kept referring me back to the App K.

Tim

[Oneball]

Thanks Duddha and Mike.

[Oneball]

Thanks Mike and Duddha. I’d never really thought about it before but trying to find a painter for my winter project and looking at colours that’d work on the Vette.

[Oneball]

Thanks both.

Do you know if there’s a reason why some extensions to homolgation forms aren’t dated? For example ext 4 on 583 for the Corvette.

[Oneball]

Thanks both.

Sorry for the slow reply, I've tried to say thanks loads of times but it never seems to get published.

Is there a formal route if I have a questions regarding a HTP/homologation/spec? When I ask our ASN they more or less refer you to the regs and say it'd be up to the FIA to decide.

I'm looking at the papers for a C3 Corvette, 583 and there is no date on extension 4

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Oneball

Thanks both.

Do you know if there’s a reason why some extensions to homolgation forms aren’t dated? For example ext 4 on 583 for the Corvette.

I think you will find that the dating for Ext 4 has the same dating as Ext 3 , because they were probably introduced at the same time .

[Oneball]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

I think you will find that the dating for Ext 4 has the same dating as Ext 3 , because they were probably introduced at the same time .

I think that's unlikely as ext 3 is dated 1969 and the 454cu engine listed in ext 4 didn't come out till the end of 1970.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Oneball

Thanks both.

Sorry for the slow reply, I've tried to say thanks loads of times but it never seems to get published.

Is there a formal route if I have a questions regarding a HTP/homologation/spec? When I ask our ASN they more or less refer you to the regs and say it'd be up to the FIA to decide.

I'm looking at the papers for a C3 Corvette, 583 and there is no date on extension 4

583 3 Chevrolet Corvette Sting Ray 19467 6997 01.06.1968
583 3 1/1V 01.07.1968
583 3 2/2V 01.07.1968
583 3 3/3V 01.01.1969
583 3 4/4V 01.01.1970
583 3 5/5V 01.01.1973
583 3 6/1E 01.04.1974
583 3 7/6V 01.04.1974

[Oneball]

Thanks Duddha

[356sc]

Slightly off piste question for the learned masses....

An orange marker light on the roof of the car to help pit crew locate the car from the pit wall...does this need to appear on the HTP’s? This came up at scrutineering at Monza.

I struggle to believe that all the additional spot lights etc that get added for 6 hours and other night events appear on the papers....

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by 356sc

Slightly off piste question for the learned masses....

An orange marker light on the roof of the car to help pit crew locate the car from the pit wall...does this need to appear on the HTP’s? This came up at scrutineering at Monza.

I struggle to believe that all the additional spot lights etc that get added for 6 hours and other night events appear on the papers....

It must be on the HTP, lighting is part of the specification but reality and 6 hours show that very few cars are either running to the HTP specification or even hold a valid one.

I spent the last two years in a garage with a team that in-between scrutineering and practice would change half of the engine bay, add lighting and even had fake coper/rust painted on an aluminium radiator

[356sc]

thanks Louis!

...the lengths people go to win a cheap trophy!

[Gerard C]

You again, Will! You laugh… You've better have a look to the picture on your HTP, may be you'll be asked to supply crushed mosquitoes as seen in period! I mean the same ones… Compare to this search half a potato is nothing at all!

[356sc]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

You again, Will! You laugh… You've better have a look to the picture on your HTP, may be you'll be asked to supply crushed mosquitoes as seen in period! I mean the same ones… Compare to this search half a potato is nothing at all!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

You again, Will! You laugh… You've better have a look to the picture on your HTP, may be you'll be asked to supply crushed mosquitoes as seen in period! I mean the same ones… Compare to this search half a potato is nothing at all!

Sorry Gerard but I believe that historic cars should look period and this includes lighting. Spa 6 Hours is a must see to understand that with GT40s sporting rally additional lighting like they never did or half of the grid looking like christmas trees and sporting LED anywhere possible.

The truth is lighting is much better than in period without the need to run full LED bars or Xenon lighting and I do wonder how my Uncle did win so many 24h races in the VdeV series with only period lights on a B16, like the whole grid back then or how did the true professional drove way better and faster without the need for all these technologies.

[Mike Bell]

[MGDavid]

Mike - did the engine change go OK, and which pitbox are you in?

[Oneball]

What is allowed with regards to engine blocks and HTPs? Despite having been involved in historic motorsport for 25 years I've been banging my head against a brick wall for weeks trying to find an answer to this question.

Can I use a later engine block that has a different casting number if it is the same in terms of spec, material, dimensions and manufacturer as that originally fitted?