Porsche 997 - Development Curve

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by fausto

moderator, please...

for what?

[Dario911]

No, dear arakis... you're wrong!
In 2007 Autorlando Sport, an Italian racing team, has won the International GT Open. The only Porsche against half of a dozen competitive Ferraris F430.
997 RSR as you could see examining lap times race by race, was almost faster than F430. In Monza, 911 driven by Lietz was 1" faster than F430 driven by Montermini & co.
In GT Open, Ferrari has an higer output power in confront of FIA GT: 480 CV, while Porsche has the same 485 cv (the same power of the FIA GT spec).
In GT Open Porsche has helped directly Autorlando Sport, necause Autorlando is one of the older Porsche teams on the international scene. So, they received some innovations, such as a new electronic differential, and they were faster than any other opponent.
In Monza, 911 RSR set the track record for GT2 class cars, during the GT Open racing weekend.
As it was - 911 - the faster car in Le Mans, with the better lap times.

[Dario911]

Autorlando Sport, to be precise, received some 911 2008 Evo parts, at the same way of F430 Play Team and GPC in GT Open received new engine and aero parts from Ferrari. The Porsche was very fast, with a great driver like Lietz, and won the challenge.
In Italian GT, Porsche were very fast, on the same Ferrari's level. But when the Porsche was fightin for the first place in the challenge, Pirelli played its game.
Strangely, Porsche tyres had some troubles and the car was not as competitive as it was in the first part of the season. Porsche protested with CSAI and Pirelli, and there where some verifications: Pirelli admitted the different treatment in favour of Ferrari (declared by mr. Cancellis, chief of Pirelli Sport).
So, Porsche has lost the challenge, although Pirelli admitted the malice.
If you would make a research on the web, you could find all this story. I've read it on the italian magazine Autosprint.
And would you know why Pirelli did everything this? Because Pirelli is the main Ferrari's partner in F430 Challenge!!!
At the end of the season, Pirelli admitted they were interested to furnish their tyres to the street Porsches.
Was it perhaps a warning for the Porsche wrong tyres supply?
CSAI (Italian Sport Commission) was for the Porsche, but they didn't do anything against Pirelli!

[Dario911]

Who was the tyres supplier for BMS? Porsche has left BMS at the end of 2007, for this reason, too. They were tired to be penalized by the italian tyres manifacturer.

[tblincoe]

Porsche left BMS? Are you sure it wasn't the other way around?

[Dario911]

I'm sure, I'm absolutly sure. BMS was interested to have 3 RSR Evo 2008 for Fia GT and one or two RS Spyder for Le Mans series. But Porsche wasn't satisfied for the Pirelli treatment, so decided to leave BMS.
Have you read in my previous posts the story between Porsche and Pirelli?
BMS was not interested to change its program, as declared by its team manager Minuti. They were happy and satisfied for their first year with Porsche. The car - they said - was very good, there were only some youth troubles to solve. In 2008 they would have the chance to win GT2 class, but Porsche decided for a different way.

[arakis]

oh come on u are compering a national championship, (spanish) vs fia gt championship and alms. u know just a little bit realizm wouldnt hurt u. They cant be compared, on one side u have gentlmen drivers and unknown teams, and on the other u have almost works teams and factory drivers, in other words both competiors have squised 100% out of their cars, (and ferrari won) while in internatoinal gt open there is now way to guess who had a better driver and thus gained an advantige.

Oh come on now the tires did it, no no i know it was the little green man that lost porsche fia gt and alms and lmes

[PorscheFanNo1]

Now I think someone is just childish for having been proved wrong for like the 17th time and ran out of arguments seeing as youve used the same one for the last 5 posts...

[NightStalk3r]

Originally Posted by arakis

oh come on u are compering a national championship, (spanish) vs fia gt championship and alms. u know just a little bit realizm wouldnt hurt u. They cant be compared, on one side u have gentlmen drivers and unknown teams, and on the other u have almost works teams and factory drivers, in other words both competiors have squised 100% out of their cars, (and ferrari won) while in internatoinal gt open there is now way to guess who had a better driver and thus gained an advantige.

Oh come on now the tires did it, no no i know it was the little green man that lost porsche fia gt and alms and lmes

IMHO International GT Open had a stronger GT2 field than the FIA GT did.

[tux]

Originally Posted by arakis

oh come on u are compering a national championship, (spanish) vs fia gt championship and alms. u know just a little bit realizm wouldnt hurt u. They cant be compared, on one side u have gentlmen drivers and unknown teams, and on the other u have almost works teams and factory drivers, in other words both competiors have squised 100% out of their cars, (and ferrari won) while in internatoinal gt open there is now way to guess who had a better driver and thus gained an advantige.

Oh come on now the tires did it, no no i know it was the little green man that lost porsche fia gt and alms and lmes

well arakis no one has mentioned the spanish gt championship. The international gt open isnt a spanish championship it is european as you will see from this seasons shedule.

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APRIL 19 - 20 VALLELUNGA


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MAY 17 - 18 VALENCIA (WTCC)


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MAY-JUNE 31- 01 SPA


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JULY 12 - 13 ESTORIL (WTCC)


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AUGUST 30 - 31 OSCHERSLEBEN (*)-(**)

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SEPTEMBER 20 - 21 MAGNY COURS


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OCTOBER 04 - 05 MONZA (WTCC)


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NOVEMBER 01 - 02 CATALUNYA


Going back to the porsche hisaq competition are all but confirmed as an official works team for the fia gt. They should have 1 maybe 2 2008 spec 997 rsr and michelin tires with Richard westbrook on the driving team. Hisaq won the 2007 supercup championship with richard westbrook so they know how to make these porsche work.

[tux]

Originally Posted by arakis

oh come on u are compering a national championship, (spanish) vs fia gt championship and alms. u know just a little bit realizm wouldnt hurt u. They cant be compared, on one side u have gentlmen drivers and unknown teams, and on the other u have almost works teams and factory drivers, in other words both competiors have squised 100% out of their cars, (and ferrari won) while in internatoinal gt open there is now way to guess who had a better driver and thus gained an advantige.

Oh come on now the tires did it, no no i know it was the little green man that lost porsche fia gt and alms and lmes

As for the tires doing it tires play a huge role in a race cars performance. Afterall they are what transfers the power, handling from the car to the track. Pirelli tires are always going to favour ferrari teams in terms of available tire data/ choices because ferrari are italian, pirelli are itallian and the championship is itallian. It would be best for everyone if an italian built car with an italian team with an italian brand of tires won the italian gt championship, and what better way to ensure this than supply the porsche team with sub standard tires and poor levels of support.

[chernaudi]

This may explain(although it pertains mostly to Porsche's LMP2 program) the situlation with Porsche's customer car program: http://www.sportscarpros.com/off-the...es/default.htm

[Dario911]

@arakis:

If you don't know how tires mean, I'm seriously worried!
Tires are all, expecially in modern race cars! So, I suppose you don't kno anything about International GT Open. Internationale doesn't mean Spanish! Or am I wrong?!
So, if you would compare GT2 performances in GT Open and Fia GT, you should be surprised to discover GT2 classes in GT Open are almos 1" or more faster in confront of Fia GT same class cars.
That's why in GT Open GT2 cars are slightly different and more competitive tha the same GT2 Fia GT class.
There's a great interest for GT Open in the motorsport panorama. Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette, Aston, Mosler, Ford and many others... all this brands are very interested to compete in this challenge with their works team (Porsche with Autorlando, Ferrari with Play Team Sara Free, i.e.).
I think this is a relevant choice. Isn't it?

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by Dario911

I'm sure, I'm absolutly sure. BMS was interested to have 3 RSR Evo 2008 for Fia GT and one or two RS Spyder for Le Mans series. But Porsche wasn't satisfied for the Pirelli treatment, so decided to leave BMS.
Have you read in my previous posts the story between Porsche and Pirelli?
BMS was not interested to change its program, as declared by its team manager Minuti. They were happy and satisfied for their first year with Porsche. The car - they said - was very good, there were only some youth troubles to solve. In 2008 they would have the chance to win GT2 class, but Porsche decided for a different way.

Very interesting as I'd assumed it was the other way around based purely on what has happened with other Porsche customers switching to Ferrari. Thank you for the correction!

Little off topic, but how is Napoli these days? Lived there for three years a long while back!

[Dario911]

@ tblincoe

Oh, Napoli is wonderful as the same! But there's a bit of... garbage all around! It's not a great show, and we are all waiting government solve this disappointing situation.
Where do you live now? And what were you doing in Napoli? Where did you live, here? Good vibes to you!

[tux]

Dario how do you know so much about porsche Are you just a passionate fan? or an insider??

There is no issue here, as a fellow porsche fan i am delighted that you share your knowledge with us

[Dario911]

Hi tux! I'm a greatful Porsche fan, but I know some interestin people at Porsche Italia and some drivers.
On of the drivers I know is Gianpaolo Tenchini. He's a Pirelli tester and races in the Italian GT with a F430...
I met him in semptember 2007, in Vallelunga. I was there to see the Porsche Cup challenge (I was a Porsche Italy guest! ), and there was the Italian GT on the same weekend.
So I met Luca Riccitelli, Arturo Merzario, Gianpaolo Tenchini, Christian Pescatori and many other people (team managers, mechanics, etc). In this way I've known a lot of interesting things...
My friend Tenchini (he won the 1.st Italian GT round that sunday), have run for Autorlando in Spa 24 Hours in 2005, with a Porsche GT3 RSR.
He's an evo tester too, and tested few weeks before his F430 GT2 and 911 GT3 RSR of the Autorlando Sport.
And he said me he preferred 997. No doubts, he said.
997 is a very hard car. very difficult to drive, with a greatful, wonderful engine. But if you can jump on the F430 and push it as much as you need from the first moment, on the Porsche it is entirely different!
You must know very well the car before to push it, but is very gratifying for a racer. It's not a gentleman car!
He was sure the Porsche would have become a great contender in 2008!
I'm happy to meet some other Porsche maniacs!
Good vibes to all of you!

[arakis]

thx for the good vibes same to you,

I know how much tires mean, the point was , as inplied by the little green men remarck, that you are trying to pusch a conspiresy theory becouse u have no other plosible soluton to the problem, simply accept that Ferrari beat porsche, and everything will start to make sence, just kiding. th epoint s if we start trowing consprisy theories around and stop beliving that the races taking place are equal and fair there would be ne point in watching them, so if u have evidence other then simple nationalysm please represent them, otherwise please dont spoil the fun of raceing just becouse porsce lost to a faster and allround better car, kiding again.

[arakis]

as for the tyre punchtures, they seem to be inherent with 100 kilos more weight, and wheight balance way too much in the back, and add all that with a non works team u get high peformance for a few laps and then boom. similr problem non lizard teams had in the alms for the first half of the season tires (Michelins) kept blowing up.

as for the international gt open it came out ot the spanish gt championship, and can in no way be compared with the level of Fia gt and alms. simply put works teams with works drivers equals 100% performance out of the car thus they can be compared, by us, with a less magin of error in conclusions.


conclusions are Ferrari was faster and allround beter, tyre maintenence and how easy it was to drive fast.

and porche had better reliability, as much a i hate to admit it. this year porsche mad advances but u seem to forget that ferrari had its custemurs testing the 2008 wersin in november, and porsche will have its first examples show to the teams in march, thats 3 months of development for ferrari for free.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

This may explain(although it pertains mostly to Porsche's LMP2 program) the situlation with Porsche's customer car program.

I don't see how to relates to the 997 GT3 RSR program

[Zytek_Fan]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I don't see how to relates to the 997 GT3 RSR program

The LMP2 programme caused Porsche to neglect their RSR programme

[gwyllion]

The article only talks about the future of the Audi LMP1 and Porsche LMP2 programme ...

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan

The LMP2 programme caused Porsche to neglect their RSR programme

Does that mean Porsche, the most profitable car manufacture, has to make a choice between the P2 project OR the 997 GT2 cars?

Seems like Porsche is finding out that customers are not real happy with the support or lack there of in the GT2 cars, especilly smaller teams.
And Porsche not allowing customers to do their own development work, plus with other competitive cars the F430, and hopefully the Riley built Corvettes GTs ( customers waiting), the Aston Martin, etal porsche may have to make some decissions.

So is Porsche spredding themselves too thin with too much racing is my question?

[Spyderman]

This is exactly what I suspect is the root of the problem.
It maybe that Porsche needs to take a step back and consolidate.
It needs to figure out what exactly does it want to gain from its LMP2 project. Just saying that they want to make a profit is not an option; the profit should be a consequence of their strategy ;and the good management of the said strategy, and not the principle aim.
As for the 997 RSR project, it may be wise (at this point in time) to seek product depth (through development of product quality) rather than breadth (through large client portfolio).
Basically, short term profit goals need to be placed on the back burner allowing for product development to take place, thus allowing profit goals to be achieved in the medium and longer terms.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Basically, short term profit goals need to be placed on the back burner allowing for product development to take place, thus allowing profit goals to be achieved in the medium and longer terms.

Setting aside profit goals is never an option, yet stepping away form racing is. Look at BMW, while their F1 teams is doing well, they stepped back to develop their new 3 series car and the 3 series GT2 car for 2009 and beyond.

Wild guess here, Porcshe would close down the Prototype development and concentrate on GT production cars and new GT race cars. The real customer base and profits.

The 911 series cars may be way too old, but with years and years plus millions of D-marks invested in devleopment and engineering, dont think that will stop that line.