[WEC Race] WEC 2024: Round 6 - Lone Star Le Mans

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by pach233

Well penalties seem to always mar the results recently but ultimately it was an enjoyable race. Crowd I think was larger than expected and seemed knowledgeable and appreciative throughout.

Bless them. The crowd did well.

Originally Posted by airbusA346

#55 technical infringement: "Maximum released powertrain power in lap 130 (+5%)"

#20 technical infringement: "Not respecting Energy per stint"

If you could refrain from cheating that would be ace

[Akrapovic]

Buemi is extremely lucky to come away with only 2 penalty points for his actions. That was race ban territory.

[airbusA346]

Iron Dames (#85) and Iron Lynx (#63 Hypercar) received further penalties after the race.

Both received drive through penalties converted to 45 second time penalties for abusing track limits. #85 also received a stop and go penalty converted to a 4 minute 45 second time penalty for exceeding the total tyre allocation (by 2).

[flatlandsman]

Sadly this penalty stuff is getting a bit OTT, this series as so do many others seem to only ever want to follow F1 in terms of how they do thigs, you can see it from the race coverage, the replays and now it is drifting into the penalty systems.

OK things that are done wrong need to be penalised, but really does it have to be so complicated and all over the place, I can follow it, but as a newcomer this is all very OTT for people who are new, the team do a great job telling you, but it needs to be less of this.

I dont know the answer sadly.

Was warming to Buemi but that, sorry that was deplorable driving, I love Toyota at the moment their fight against the system is great, but cmon man, that is not fair, the guy nearly put him in the fence at 180mph. How they are doing so well in a car Bopped to hell is amazing.

Ferrari have now won a race so hopefully ACO stop trying so hard to let them win. (joke)

[chernaudi]

As far as penalties, as I said, the WEC should follow the IMSA model and have the race director make the calls (or for technical stuff, with the input of the series tech director). One, the race director for both IMSA and the WEC themselves have a ton of info at their fingertips to allow them to not just spot things, but also make their own decisions.



Two, it'll cut down on time it takes to determine if something's actionable, and how severe the penalty should be if deemed that one should be issued. Not to mention that how the FIA do things with stewards in F1 and the WEC involves a revolving door of officials and hence results from race to race for the same things can significantly differ.


Of course, one issue for the FIA for F1 and the ACO/FIA for the WEC is that the officials on the stewards panel if they become permanent professionals is that they'd expect to be paid. That's one reason why there's not professional juries for criminal or civil tries in most countries. If they're going to be on call for local, state or federal trials, they expect to get paid, not to mention that (IMO) to be a professional juror one should also have a law degree.


Here, the FIA would have to pay people who are professionals in their field (I believe that the officials on the stewards panel are unpaid or very lowly paid volunteers). Same with track workers. Most are volunteers recruited from local or regional sporting associations who are either unpaid or barely paid for their time.



I know that there's a lot of things that some say we should go back to "how it used to be done", but for FIA sanctioned championships, this is one of the "how it used to be done" that has to go IMO.

[TF110]

Missed most of the race, but not surprised at the outcome. I think the penalties are pretty far out there. Adding minutes to total time after the race for things like track limits looks whacky. Do it in the race instead of post. A drive through for the #7 for not lifting for a single yellow flag especially when the car is parked on the side off-line on the straight is another excessive penalty. And others hit with the same thing doesn't make it better, even if fair for a consistency standpoint. It looks like they just want to punish teams and it ruins the flow of the race.

But poor showing wasn't just from the level of harsh officiating in the race. Peugeot is not progressing with this car. BMW also blew it when looking so strong. The opposite side, the Alpine is a positive surprise and Cadillac get a top 5!

[flatlandsman]

AS I say I think there needs to be not only a less penalty driven approach, but a move away from F1, that sport is utterly riddled with ridiculous, often pointless penalties that try and make a very weak sport exciting and add drama.

WEC does not need that, yes it might at times, but we all know as fans you are waiting for that final hour., the rest is putting yourself into position. Penalising a car for a guy touching the wing for half a second is pathetic, or as someone said not lifting when the car is miles off line, it's just silly, yes safety is important, but common sense seems to have been utterly ignored here.

I know they are all supposed to know the rules, but some of this is split second reflex stuff that should not be penalised so hugely. They wont moan as they know they will be rollocked if they do, that is also something I loath about modern protectionst motorsport. Yes your brand is important, but not at the exclusion of any kind of criticism.

[helgi]

I'm 100% sure lap times average by drivers is going to be a bit surprising.

[Articus]

I didn't have any problem with the penalties issued during the race. Execution is what separates the best from the merely good. Execution is also what allows a car that might not have the ultimate pace, to get a good result.

Toyota had a very fast car, but they made mistakes and didn't win. If you remove all of the obstacles, the races become more deterministic. Winning in WEC is supposed to be hard and teams know that this is an area where they can make a difference even if they don't have the strongest car. It's brilliant and it should not change.

[flatlandsman]

If you are happy to see seemingly endless penalties for very very mediocre things then I can only say fair play to you, I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by a few people in a room who are more interested in pedantic rules than actually making the racing more interesting, dynamic and "proper".

I am fully aware that all rules exist for a reason but the nitpickery does sometimes, not always, go beyond the joke and for me this is FIA, F1 is the golden child and it is no shock to me that the emergence of pathetic, very nitpickery rules there has come into other forms of racing.

I have no dog in the race here, I do not support one team more than another, and these comments are nothing to do with that, more the seemingly endless stream of very minor infractions that cause peoples races to be scuppered.

It does not detract from the racing, the drivers or anything, but as I said earlier, I think getting to the end of any WEC race without being penalised is somewhat of an achievement, is that really what we want here? It is broadly similar in IMSA I will add.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

If you are happy to see seemingly endless penalties for very very mediocre things then I can only say fair play to you, I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by a few people in a room who are more interested in pedantic rules than actually making the racing more interesting, dynamic and "proper".

I am fully aware that all rules exist for a reason but the nitpickery does sometimes, not always, go beyond the joke and for me this is FIA, F1 is the golden child and it is no shock to me that the emergence of pathetic, very nitpickery rules there has come into other forms of racing.

I have no dog in the race here, I do not support one team more than another, and these comments are nothing to do with that, more the seemingly endless stream of very minor infractions that cause peoples races to be scuppered.

It does not detract from the racing, the drivers or anything, but as I said earlier, I think getting to the end of any WEC race without being penalised is somewhat of an achievement, is that really what we want here? It is broadly similar in IMSA I will add.

I have to admit, I dislike your approach to this conversation. Not liking penalties is one thing (and completely valid), however saying that these are "endless penalties for very very mediocre things" and how you prefer "proper racing", inferring that others do not, is not a very fair approach.

I could flip this round and I don't think you'd like it. If you're happy to see seemingly countless drivers unable to drive on the circuit, or obey the most basic of safety regulations that even an arrive-and-drive go-kart circuit would enforce then I can only say fair play to you. I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by the few drivers who ignore the rules and safety of others, and are more interested in cheating their way to a win than racing for it fairly.

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

If you are happy to see seemingly endless penalties for very very mediocre things then I can only say fair play to you, I prefer to watch proper racing, not results determined by a few people in a room who are more interested in pedantic rules than actually making the racing more interesting, dynamic and "proper".

I am fully aware that all rules exist for a reason but the nitpickery does sometimes, not always, go beyond the joke and for me this is FIA, F1 is the golden child and it is no shock to me that the emergence of pathetic, very nitpickery rules there has come into other forms of racing.

I have no dog in the race here, I do not support one team more than another, and these comments are nothing to do with that, more the seemingly endless stream of very minor infractions that cause peoples races to be scuppered.

It does not detract from the racing, the drivers or anything, but as I said earlier, I think getting to the end of any WEC race without being penalised is somewhat of an achievement, is that really what we want here? It is broadly similar in IMSA I will add.

The majority of the penalties were for repeated track limit offences and the long stop/go penalties were all for gaining an unfair advantage by running outside of the regulations (using too much power, tyre pressures below the minimum allowed (both of those after several warnings) and using too many tyres).

[broadrun96]

My problem was PURELY with the bureaucratic pace at which things were decided. Having to run things through 37 people around the world and 7 rounds of votes to determine if a penalty should be issued for being hit or for a yellow that should have be removed based on other times with a car that far off. Sht or get off the pot but you shouldn't need to ask everyone and issue a penalty hours later, that's the issue and makes you look like you have no idea what's going on. Have telemetry and can tell in 5 seconds, have video and can tell Buemi just didn't want to actually drive the circuit. Drag his ass out of the car and park it next lap, you didn't need each team to come to principal's office. And then call the wrong team, makes you look foolish and out of control

[TF110]

Officiating can be difficult and I don't envy those guys for their jobs. But there's gotta be consistency. The Ferrari got hit by the Vette early but there was no penalty.

[chernaudi]

And that's my issue--having to have a stewarding panel of at least 3 officials make the decision and have to call people to the principal's office to explain themselves is bureaucratic seemingly for the sake of bureaucracy. In IMSA (per their rules as in their rule book), the race director is basically god. There, what Beaux Barfield (race director, both in the ALMS from Detroit '08 to the end of 2011, and modern IMSA from COTA '14 to present) says, goes. IMSA does have a stewarding panel, but those officials are only supplementary and advisory, and the race director make the final call on what's actionable, and to what degree. I feel in the WEC that Eduardo Freitas should have the same authority, given that he probably does have more resources than Barfield has at IMSA to make it work.


Again, one can make the argument that the ACO and the FIA have done it this way for years, but this is one time that tradition should take a back seat to practicality and/or efficiency. But then again, if we're going to put things into one guy's hands, he'd better do a good job of it (unlike like Paul Walker in IMSA from '12-14-don't get me started on that moron).


Only time a penalty should be announced or deferred to post race is for technical infringements found post race, or a team files an appeal or protest that has to be heard by the sanctioning body.

[flatlandsman]

I think you will find that a lot of thee penalties are for marginal breaches, as I said in my post, for me there have to be rules, but the amount of penalties for marginal breaches of things is a lot. Yes there have to be rules but I do not really think, as you say it people are cheating they are just doing what every racer has done who wants to win, pushing the limits, yes some might be doing it deliberately but some might be accidents.

Is every track limit breach deliberate? I doubt it, this is a debate to be had in all forms of racing and is lined to track design and the over emphasis on safety over and above all else, something we all agree on, but are now seeing the downsides of with this.

Personally I would rather see a more pragmatic approach, this is seemingly not possible.

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

I think you will find that a lot of thee penalties are for marginal breaches, as I said in my post, for me there have to be rules, but the amount of penalties for marginal breaches of things is a lot. Yes there have to be rules but I do not really think, as you say it people are cheating they are just doing what every racer has done who wants to win, pushing the limits, yes some might be doing it deliberately but some might be accidents.

Is every track limit breach deliberate? I doubt it, this is a debate to be had in all forms of racing and is lined to track design and the over emphasis on safety over and above all else, something we all agree on, but are now seeing the downsides of with this.

Personally I would rather see a more pragmatic approach, this is seemingly not possible.

They will have been warned several times about tyre pressures and over use of power. If they then get a penalty it's not an accident is it.

If drivers didn't keep going off track deliberately, they have enough warnings available to account for being forced off etc.

[flatlandsman]

The thing is there are numerous things that can affect tyre pressure, and also there are numerous things that can cause off track issues.

I have huge sympathy for stewards, they are only enforcing rules, but it is getting a little like VAR at times, as I say it seems a victory to finish a race without getting penalised as just about everyone catches one sometimes

My point is mainly, do we really need such stringent rules about everything. You must know the one I am talking about with the poor mechanic who put his hand out to touch a wing as the car came into his box, and the team were penalised, I mean that was a reflex action, is that really a safety thing, they are only doing the penalty because otherwise someone would moan who was near them in position. Dont you agree some of these rules need tidying up?

Yes it breaks the rules, but really, are we going that far?

I agree with you actually about pressure and off track, that has been around a long time, and needs enforcing, but some of the other stuff just seems a little "can we not just have some common sense in there aswell"

[Articus]

Originally Posted by flatlandsman

The thing is there are numerous things that can affect tyre pressure, and also there are numerous things that can cause off track issues.

The minimum tire pressures are a safety issue. This is mandated by Michelin to prevent tire failures. Lower tire pressure increases peformance so without any regulations teams would push the limit and end with failures and accidents in the races. Numerous things can affect tire pressure, so you overinflate them to account for it. It's no different to using ballast to meet the minimum weight while also accounting for weight loss due to tire wear and plank wear. If you build in a margin a safety, you won't fail any test.

There are numerous things that can cause off track issues, which is why the cars get a certain amount of infractions before they get a penalty.

[GT3_Fan]

GT Rain and Off in the Esses are going over the Lone Star right now. Give them a listen. They are very good commentators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR4EfYL7DIg

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by airbusA346

They will have been warned several times about tyre pressures and over use of power. If they then get a penalty it's not an accident is it. If drivers didn't keep going off track deliberately, they have enough warnings available to account for being forced off etc.

Agreed.

[Adam43]

Toyota owned the consistent lap time. They have a race machine. The others have caught up we see that they are good in the races. Endurance racing baby. It also does it differently to the others, they don't have the speed traps, but they have the top speeds.

But let's not get too giddy. The fastest Ferrari grabbed the fastest lap, but went out too early to collect those fast laps for the Top x averages.

And look! Alpine #35! Wooo! Helped by that top speed (see below).

Decent BMW pace too from #20, although as we will see it was the #15 that had the higher consistent top speed.

[Adam43]

Top Speeds.

Ferrari has the edge. Toyota matches their speed, but towards the bottom.

So is Porsche, but doesn't have the lap time. So it doesn't have the top speed, but as Nato pointed out it suffers on the uneven COTA surface too:
https://www.dailysportscar.com/2024/...ock-notes.html

Originally Posted by Jonathan DiuguidNorman Nato

The track has improved with its resurfacing, yet it is still bumpy, and the 963 has a hard time with its configuration.

Having a single digit number doesn't help One for you causation / correlation fans out there.

[Adam43]

Breakdown of the Hypercar drivers

Go Melesi and Schumacher!

There was only one #51 driver, so less chance.

[FIRE]

Thanks