Massa Who?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

or maybe they also care more about Massa then they do about the WCC and the money that it brings.

there is a tremendous amount of loyalty being shown here for a seat they dont care about.

You honestly believe that? A Formula 1 team, who invest millions of $, endless sponser who give them millions of $, millions of fans worldwide who spend hundreds ant thousands supporting their beloved team, following it around the world craving success. Then the team are going to give up that success because they "care" about a driver who isn't delivering? No way.

I can understand a loyalty to Felipe given the history,(near) success in 2008, accident in 2009, but the team have repaid that loyalty by sticking by him for 2010, 2011 and 2012.

I can also understand putting their weight behind Fernando in a push for a WDC, but they owe it to their fans, sponsers, themselves etc to also have a driver who can help them achieve a WCC.

Don't get me wrong, i would love to see the old Felipe back, but he's lost his mojo and to be honest, being in that enviroment, underachieving in the way he is isn't doing him any good.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

You honestly believe that? A Formula 1 team, who invest millions of $, endless sponser who give them millions of $, millions of fans worldwide who spend hundreds ant thousands supporting their beloved team, following it around the world craving success. Then the team are going to give up that success because they "care" about a driver who isn't delivering? No way.

I can understand a loyalty to Felipe given the history,(near) success in 2008, accident in 2009, but the team have repaid that loyalty by sticking by him for 2010, 2011 and 2012.

I can also understand putting their weight behind Fernando in a push for a WDC, but they owe it to their fans, sponsers, themselves etc to also have a driver who can help them achieve a WCC.

Don't get me wrong, i would love to see the old Felipe back, but he's lost his mojo and to be honest, being in that enviroment, underachieving in the way he is isn't doing him any good.

They don't give a **** for Massa. The decision has already been made at FIAT headquarters and Luca just have to put it out sometime this season or even in the off-season. It's just a matter of how things will develop and the "when" and "if" are falling into the right place and the announcement will be made. As any other big operation they plan ahead and alternatives were considered and the decision has been made, everything we say here is pure speculation and a fan opinion about the "sport" and his pieces.

[Mr V]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that the don't care about Felipe as an individual, what i'm saying that they, as a team, they won't keep him for sentiments sake. Surely the way they forced Michael out proves that.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that the don't care about Felipe as an individual, what i'm saying that they, as a team, they won't keep him for sentiments sake. Surely the way they forced Michael out proves that.

They don't care, be sure of that. I quoted your post just to add this information to it.
Some time in the future, as promised, and I hope it happens, Rubens will tell all that happened there and maybe we'll see a glimpse of what really Ferrari is.

As I said, it's been decided at FIAT HQ, believe me or not.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Bononi

They don't care, be sure of that. I quoted your post just to add this information to it.
Some time in the future, as promised, and I hope it happens, Rubens will tell all that happened there and maybe we'll see a glimpse of what really Ferrari is.

As I said, it's been decided at FIAT HQ, believe me or not.

All Rubens will do is try and big note himself up against Schumacher.
He was the number two driver at Ferrari by several country miles on talent alone, and was not nearly as much help to Schumacher as he should have been, he should have been finishing immediately behind Schumacher and taking points off the opposition, he hardly ever finished behind his team leader. On the basis that Rubens kept his Ferrari seat Massa is certainly safe!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by wnut

All Rubens will do is try and big note himself up against Schumacher.
He was the number two driver at Ferrari by several country miles on talent alone, and was not nearly as much help to Schumacher as he should have been, he should have been finishing immediately behind Schumacher and taking points off the opposition, he hardly ever finished behind his team leader. On the basis that Rubens kept his Ferrari seat Massa is certainly safe!

It's not about what he was or his talent or anything like that... it's just about how Ferrari operates.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Bononi

It's not about what he was or his talent or anything like that... it's just about how Ferrari operates.

I don't think that Rubens would be able to provide a fair assessment of the politics in Ferrari, due to his own short commings when teamed with Schumacher.
If he had performed at a better level than Schumacher they would have backed him!


When Alonso arrived at Ferrari I got the impression that elements of the team would have liked him to fail, and backed Massa. Alonso however has proved to be much better than Massa - gameover.

Mr. V's post above about how long they can carry Massa as a non performing driver, is I think accurate.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mr V

You honestly believe that?

i guess it makes me sound naive but yeah i do believe it.

obviously you are right though, loyalty (if that what it is) wont keep him there forever as his results dont support it. they havent supported it in almost 3 years with the exception of one race where they asked him and he complied in making room for his teammate. but from all accounts Massa is suggesting that he is still in there with a shot for a seat next year. even suggesting that its still his seat to lose.

and Bon is probably right that a decision has already been made but my questions remain...what took them so long and why does Massa keep on getting chances?

maybe they feel like they owe him something more than satisfying sponsors or making money or maybe they feel like there is no one better to fill the role. it will soon be 3 years, maybe even 4, so to me both imply a certain faith and loyalty in his ability he hasen't since his return demonstrated on track.

[JohnSSC]

I think V hit the nail on the head with his post from 4:17 yesterday. Ferrari have always looked out for Ferrari and will continue to do so. Right now, and for the time since Massa returned, Felipe just has not delivered consistently. Ferrari wants the WCC badly and also wants the headlines to be about team success, not the shortcomings of a driver or of members of the team.

Bon, regarding your comments about RB "telling all" I am sure that the internal goings-on at Ferrari are much more hard-edged than the public proclamations by Stefano or Luca that they are one big family. Not to change the subject here (as apparently there are many things to cover in re: Massa!!) but RB was in over his head at Ferrari insofar as his ability to integrate himself into the team. That ability is something at which Michael was the master - and I am not speaking of playing politics but of integrating himself as a part of the total structure of the team including specifically the technical side of things. That would be an interesting story to read as well...

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and Bon is probably right that a decision has already been made but my questions remain...what took them so long and why does Massa keep on getting chances?

I believe, can't say it is the reason, that they keep Massa because any other driver to replace him now or before during this season would hardly fit to the car, despite anyone thinks how talented one can be, without the proper training time that F1 doesn't have anymore.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Bon, regarding your comments about RB "telling all" I am sure that the internal goings-on at Ferrari are much more hard-edged than the public proclamations by Stefano or Luca that they are one big family. Not to change the subject here (as apparently there are many things to cover in re: Massa!!) but RB was in over his head at Ferrari insofar as his ability to integrate himself into the team. That ability is something at which Michael was the master - and I am not speaking of playing politics but of integrating himself as a part of the total structure of the team including specifically the technical side of things. That would be an interesting story to read as well...

Before anything, I shall say I agree with V's post, except that they don't have any "feelings" for Massa. To support him after the accident and keep him during his poor performance last year was simply a calculated risk. Thye have a contract deal, they know what Massa could do, so they took a risk as they know they have Teflonso as the best driver in the grid.
What I believe that would be told by RB, is about exactly that the team was built around TGF and how Ferrari operated due to that. The situation today with Teflonso is pretty much the same. Teflonso himself admited that he has a voice about the future #2 driver at Ferrari. For anyone will a little knowledge about top drivers in F1 knows what that means...
Yesterday I saw a little report from a sport show on TV. It was Massa having fun driving with stock cars - the top category in Brazil - around Interlagos. After driving he talked to the interviewer about his future and his relationship with Teflonso. All he said about his future is pretty much what we know now and have been reported by the media. What he said about Teflonso was interesting, as he said that he has a very good relationship with him out of the track, and the only "problems" he had so far was on track... but it was solved with the help of the team with no hard time between them. Now, take it as you wish...

[JohnSSC]

Bon, the strength of drivers like Michael and FA is that they are consumate professionals (not that the others are not professional in approach or attitude). Michael recognized that as the era was changing true success would come to those who learned to maximize the capabilities of the entire team and to integrate themselves into the team. From that point, each part of the team must maximize their efforts, whether that be in aero, mechanical, strategy,, etc.

I think what you are not liking is perhaps the driver no longer being the jeffe de oro of the sport. Not that this is a bad thing and indeed, the sport is replete with drivers who were bigger than life: Fangio, Senna, Ascari, Clark were transcendant talents. Michael was too, but he combined that with his commitment to a new way of racing, if you will, where the total approach left no stone unturned.

Ferrari's commitment to Michael was not some sort of "takeover" by Michael as it was a makeover of how a team is constituted and operated. We have seen other teams attempting to do this with McLaren being (imho) foremost in that. The personnel involved, be they drivers or technical staff will have a lot to do with the generation of results so a juggernaut such as we saw at Ferrari will not always occur. That said, McLaren is ALWAYS a team-first sort of organization and their ongoing presence at the pointy end of the F1 grid is proof of that.

The day of the driver as the focal point of the team is long over. Does that take a bit of the romance out of it, if you will? Probably. But it has made for some interesting changes to racing and particularly F1. Just look at how reliable the cars are now as opposed to when Senna or Clark ruled the roost...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The day of the driver as the focal point of the team is long over. Does that take a bit of the romance out of it, if you will? Probably. But it has made for some interesting changes to racing and particularly F1. Just look at how reliable the cars are now as opposed to when Senna or Clark ruled the roost...

I don't know about that, with Red Bull the focus has been very much on Vettel, with Brawn the focus was on Button. With Ferrari the focus certainly has been on Alonso. Before Button came along the focus at McLaren was on Hamilton; Alonso didn't last very long there.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Bononi

What I believe that would be told by RB, is about exactly that the team was built around TGF and how Ferrari operated due to that.

For fear of taking this way off topic, with regards to Ruben's. I'm sure that once it became obvious that Ruben's couldn't challenge Michael, the team operated at Michaels behest, but Ruben's renewed his contract, at least once, maybe twice, so to then criticise the team for the way they bowed down to Michael is pretty hollow in my opinion, but i do look forward to reading the book if it ever gets released

Interesting little titbit (imo) with the way Ferrari operated. Back in 2002, i was camping at Whittlebury for the British GP, a helicopter flew over to land at the hotel. There was a Ferrari badge, on it , the door opened and a sole figure got out, it was Ruben's, the chopper took off, only to return 15 minutes later, this time with Michael in it, but also Jean Todt. I thought that spoke volumes to be honest, but then, as i say, if a driver (Ruben's) renews his contract and is happy to take the $$, knowing full well the situation, surely that's selling his soul to the devil?

[JeremySmith]

That sums it up, Rubens has nothing to complain about...

[Bononi]

Never.



I can't wait to read all about it.




It's the undisputed truth !

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I don't know about that, with Red Bull the focus has been very much on Vettel, with Brawn the focus was on Button. With Ferrari the focus certainly has been on Alonso. Before Button came along the focus at McLaren was on Hamilton; Alonso didn't last very long there.

I respectfully disagree. Today, more than ever, the cars are the stars. Yes, on a rare occasion a driver can drag a car up the grid such as Alonso did this year but even then events like weather played into it for him.

Absolutely, teams want the fastest shoe and they may "focus" on the fastest shoe but ultimately they (the teams) are putting together the fastest package possible. Not sure the Alonso/McLaren example works because there was a lot more going on behind the scenes and eventually out in the open that made focus on anything difficult. If you are paying Newey a bazillion dollars to pen a winning design you aren't going to put a middling driver in the seat. I do think though that the driver is not as much of a rock star as they once were.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I respectfully disagree. Today, more than ever, the cars are the stars. Yes, on a rare occasion a driver can drag a car up the grid such as Alonso did this year but even then events like weather played into it for him.

Absolutely, teams want the fastest shoe and they may "focus" on the fastest shoe but ultimately they (the teams) are putting together the fastest package possible. Not sure the Alonso/McLaren example works because there was a lot more going on behind the scenes and eventually out in the open that made focus on anything difficult. If you are paying Newey a bazillion dollars to pen a winning design you aren't going to put a middling driver in the seat. I do think though that the driver is not as much of a rock star as they once were.

I don't see the car's the star at all.

I think Alonso/McLaren is a perfect example; he jumped ship because the focus was on Hamilton and since moving to Ferrari, the focus is now on Alonso.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think Alonso/McLaren is a perfect example; he jumped ship because the focus was on Hamilton and since moving to Ferrari, the focus is now on Alonso.

I think he jumped ship because the working relationship with Ron Dennis was untenable.

I do honestly think though, had Alonso stayed at Mclaren, he'd have won the title in 2008 and proberbly before the last corner of the last lap of the last race.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I think he jumped ship because the working relationship with Ron Dennis was untenable.

I do honestly think though, had Alonso stayed at Mclaren, he'd have won the title in 2008 and proberbly before the last corner of the last lap of the last race.

Maybe but I'm pretty sure the Dennis/Hamilton relationship didn't help.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe but I'm pretty sure the Dennis/Hamilton relationship didn't help.

I'm sure your right also. Ironicly, it would appear that Ron and Lewis's relationship isn't that great anymore.

[BSchneiderFan]

The Spaniard didn't leave McLaren because the focus was on Hamilton, he left because it wasn't exclusively on him.

[Bononi]

As at Ferrari now...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

The Spaniard didn't leave McLaren because the focus was on Hamilton, he left because it wasn't exclusively on him.

Proof ?

[wolfhound]

Massa describes Alonso as "incredible" and Alonso says that his Ferrari is slow.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102069
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102054

In the past that could be 2 Ferrari drivers heading for the exit door for different reasons.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Massa describes Alonso as "incredible" and Alonso says that his Ferrari is slow.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102069
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102054

In the past that could be 2 Ferrari drivers heading for the exit door for different reasons.

They were joking...