2024 Season - News and Rumours

[S griffin]

I doubt we will see 3rd cars back anytime soon. Too many complications from it and how to make it fair. Really F1 should be encouraging new teams to join, but their attitude towards Andretti shows that is unlikely to happen

[chunterer]

It's fairly straightforward and could be achieved by reducing the amount of gubbins and hangers on in the pit garages so that teams just have 2 or 3 garages imstead of 3 or 4!! Ridiculous waste of space!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It's fairly straightforward and could be achieved by reducing the amount of gubbins and hangers on in the pit garages so that teams just have 2 or 3 garages imstead of 3 or 4!! Ridiculous waste of space!

Tow garages virtually impossible in many places with the size of the cars and the space taken by the battery and gearbox areas.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Another idea could be the current teams only but 3 car teams, with the 3rd car being a "juniors" car. totally different paint and sponsors to the main team, changing depending on whos in the car, with no single driver allowed to do more than 4 or 6 races a year in the car.

WCC points go only to your 2 best finishers each weekend.
(so if one of your main drivers has a shocker or DNF and your junior gets a top 10, the 3rd drivers points go towards WCC, but if all 3 cars re top 10 only the 2 best points count)

A youngster with budget to pay for a few races but not a whole year could buy a seat, plaster his stickers on the car, race a few selected events, then someone else next time. Or a team can give a "Lawson/Doohan" etc the car for a few races and a chance to show his stuff in the real world, without having to risk half of their whole years championship strategy.
Maybe only some races have facilities and pit enough for 3 car teams, so not every race has all 30.

For the teams they get cash from paid drivers, and a spare race-ready car at every track (Looking at YOU Mr V.) - Building 3 or 4 cars is not that much more expensive than 2 or 3. THe biggest cost is R&D testing, making the stamps etc.
They could even try new parts etc on car 3 and not risk the main game cars. More cars, more drivers, a way in for new faces etc, find the next Lewis/Max/Lando, lots of interest and lots for drive to survive to show.

That makes a lot of sense. I like it.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I really would love to see what it would have cost to run one of those 1970's teams in 2024 dollars.

Richard

Converting "money then" to "money now" is a very imprecise art, depending on what you use as your base comparison. However I can offer a little insight. About 1980 Team Lotus was one of the dominant teams; not quite the Red Bull of the day, but close. The entire team consisted of 35 people. They built and prepared the cars in the stables of a country house. I was also told (though I have no way of knowing what was included or excluded) that it cost £30 per lap to run an F1 car.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I really would love to see what it would have cost to run one of those 1970's teams in 2024 dollars.

Around the level of running a Formula 2 or Indycar or LMP2 team today one guesses, that's about the size of the teams then.

Most teams then only had 1-3 designers and drafts people, maybe 20-40 personnel overall, and having your own wind tunnel wasn't common until 1980 or so.

Or the other hand, they were a lavish jet-setting bunch even in the 1960's -- but so are modern F2 teams to some extent.

Perhaps F2 and LMP2 aren't the best examples as they are cost-controlled classes.

As a comparison, a Grand Prix team in the 1970's was probably at about the same level as a Super Touring team in the 1990's. A Handful of designers and a team of 20-40 people (not more than 60 people including the engine shop) making most of the parts in-house.

So the Renault Laguna "division" of Williams Grand Prix in 1997 was probably about the same size/budget as the entire Williams Grand Prix in 1977?

(Maybe the Laguna team was a little larger and more sophisticated actually with more advanced tools, but in the same ballpark! You can find the period films of various 1960's and 1970's F1 garagiste workshops. Obviously the Ferrari workshop was much larger and also housed the sportscars.)

The Laguna team was in a separate building so that gives a good idea of the relative scale of what a 1970's Grand Prix team would be, in Williams case they rented various units in an industrial lot in the 70's (for comparison, can see the larger F1 Williams Grand Prix building in various docos from the late 80's and 90's, which is still their current building).

[If John Russell designed very fast Renault Lagunas, why were the Falcons he designed for Glenn Seton Racing and Ford Performance Racing so slow?! ]

About the same size of team as what a leading NASCAR Xfinity (second tier), V8 Supercar or Brazil Stock Car team would currently be, I guess. Or what a WTCC team used to be. Or about the same size as a low-end Indycar team.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by chunterer

It's fairly straightforward and could be achieved by reducing the amount of gubbins and hangers on in the pit garages so that teams just have 2 or 3 garages imstead of 3 or 4!! Ridiculous waste of space!

Yes, hard to disagree there

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Converting "money then" to "money now" is a very imprecise art, depending on what you use as your base comparison. However I can offer a little insight. About 1980 Team Lotus was one of the dominant teams; not quite the Red Bull of the day, but close. The entire team consisted of 35 people. They built and prepared the cars in the stables of a country house. I was also told (though I have no way of knowing what was included or excluded) that it cost £30 per lap to run an F1 car.

Thanks! I tried to do some back of napkin accounting to try to tease something out of the "£30 per lap" value.

When looking at the 1980 season, there were 889 race laps. Add in about 20 laps per event for practice and qualifying (no clue if that is even close to right value) and you get a high value of 1169 laps. That doesn't factor in testing laps/costs. The 889-1169 at £30 per lap that is then £26670-35070 per season. Rough inflation of 1980 £30 being about £161 today, that creates amounts of £143-188K in today money per season. Which sound VERY low to me. I am wondering if the £30 per lap is just base track consumables (fuel, lubricants, tires, brakes) and nothing else?

I think the staffing size is the better indicator of budget estimates. I expect facilities and associated other tooling is more (even factoring in inflation) today than it was then. In the end, the point is... it was likely MUCH cheaper to run a team then than now even when factoring in inflation.

Richard

[Peter Mallett]

Not sure what this does but race fuel for us mortals is around 3.75 per litre plus VAT. So £4.50.

If the car holds 100 litres that's £450.00 at 52 laps per race that's £8.65 per lap. A team of ten engineers in the pit may be around £4800.00 per day. Practice sessions must be around 15 laps average so that's 45 laps, plus the race (52) and qualifying including top ten would be around 12 laps so £4800*3 days = 14,400 + 8.65 * 103 laps = £15290.95/103 = £148.46 per lap. Even if this were the case, you need to add management, design and testing costs, overheads, support team at base, transport and logistics, driver salaries, engineers annual salaries etc. so I'd suggest the real "cost" would be closer to £89,000.00 per lap.

[Guthrie]

Do you guys see Newey moving to Aston Martin after the recent reports that Aston Martin have made an offer to have him in their team from Red Bull?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Guthrie

Do you guys see Newey moving to Aston Martin after the recent reports that Aston Martin have made an offer to have him in their team from Red Bull?

I would think that the offer was made more in hope than expectation. He's in his mid 60s now, and I would believe that he is already very well compensated at Red Bull, and although moving to work for Stroll may well be a challenge that would have been attraction for him a few years ago, does he really need the pressure of pretty well starting all over again; I wouldn't have thought so.

Based on what he said when the Horner stuff started, I think that Newey has a pretty good working relationship with Horner (he stated early on that he would quit if Horner was kicked out) and most of the team. And they give him certain freedoms that wouldn't necessarily be available under Stroll. But who knows; if Horner is moved out, I think that then it may affect his view on moving to a different team if he still wants to work in F1.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I would think that the offer was made more in hope than expectation. He's in his mid 60s now, and I would believe that he is already very well compensated at Red Bull, and although moving to work for Stroll may well be a challenge that would have been attraction for him a few years ago, does he really need the pressure of pretty well starting all over again; I wouldn't have thought so.

Based on what he said when the Horner stuff started, I think that Newey has a pretty good working relationship with Horner (he stated early on that he would quit if Horner was kicked out) and most of the team. And they give him certain freedoms that wouldn't necessarily be available under Stroll. But who knows; if Horner is moved out, I think that then it may affect his view on moving to a different team if he still wants to work in F1.

Echoes my thoughts 100%
As an aside I did read that Lee Stevenson, who was the chief mechanic to Max, has farewelled Red Bull after 18 years with RBR.... ahead of the Japanese Grand Prix. It suggested Lee worked with Max from day 1 when Max switched to RBR from STR in 2016.

To depart a team suddenly, between the Australian and Japanese rounds, does seem a little sudden after nearly two decades with the organisation. He posted on social media on Friday to simply say today is my last day, and thanks for the journey, or words to that effect.

[P38 in workshop]

Twenty plus races a year can have that effect.

[Go Harder.]

Was his job to tension the caliper bolts?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by E.B

Echoes my thoughts 100%
As an aside I did read that Lee Stevenson, who was the chief mechanic to Max, has farewelled Red Bull after 18 years with RBR.... ahead of the Japanese Grand Prix. It suggested Lee worked with Max from day 1 when Max switched to RBR from STR in 2016.

To depart a team suddenly, between the Australian and Japanese rounds, does seem a little sudden after nearly two decades with the organisation. He posted on social media on Friday to simply say today is my last day, and thanks for the journey, or words to that effect.

The reporting on his departure also said that he’d resigned some months ago, and that he’ll now be with a team at the other end of pit lane.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tourer

The reporting on his departure also said that he’d resigned some months ago, and that he’ll now be with a team at the other end of pit lane.

Williams?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by E.B

To depart a team suddenly, between the Australian and Japanese rounds, does seem a little sudden after nearly two decades with the organisation.

Other than he has been working out his notice for months.

[GTRMagic]

Liberty Media buys MotoGP

Will there be bikes/cars events in future calendars?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Liberty Media buys MotoGP

Will there be bikes/cars events in future calendars?

Never say never (this is Liberty after all) but I would very much doubt it. The exclusivity contracts the main sponsors have would be very difficult to change, for one.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Greem

Never say never (this is Liberty after all) but I would very much doubt it. The exclusivity contracts the main sponsors have would be very difficult to change, for one.

Liberty can be ridiculously stupid at times but combining both would seem to be less in their wheelhouse as it would either be an INSANE ticket price or a major loser for them. The only exception to that could be a Miami or LV event but their so packed and limited I would doubt it. That's only cause those that go to either of those are a bit of conspicuous consumption types and to show off on SM where they are could make the price work.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Liberty Media buys MotoGP

Will there be bikes/cars events in future calendars?

I don't follow MotoGP at all, so I don't know what the general feel or culture is with respect to how events are run from the commercial side. But I would assume this may be more about making MotoGP look like F1 than F1 like whatever MotoGP is. Take stuff like Miami and Las Vegas and layer that onto MotoGP. Also, F1 has the unique relationship (and complicated history) between FOM (Liberty) and FIA. What is the commercial vs. regulatory side on MotoGP? I just looked it up a few moments ago and found that the governing body is FIM which I assumes operates totally separately from FIA?

Richard

[Peter Mallett]

I stand to be corrected, but didn't Bernie E have a hand in Moto GP?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I stand to be corrected, but didn't Bernie E have a hand in Moto GP?

CVC did have a holding in it and they did try to take over completely. However, the EU blocked or advised CVC that they would have considered a total takeover as being uncompetitive. Could this be the connection that you are thinking of?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Fund management group Bridgepoint bought Dorma, Moto GP's parent company, in 2006 from CVC Capital Partners.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard C

... it was likely MUCH cheaper to run a team then than now even when factoring in inflation.

We could chew over various cost calculations for weeks and never reach a conclusion. But that is one simple fact that can't be argued with.