Coupes from 2010

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

JAG - I sure hope you are right, and that the new cars do look like that. One of the problems esthetically has been the elimination of rear overhangs. They certainly balanced out the look of the cars, and their elimination has left the cars looking rather awkward.

I have the same worries as everyone else, but what gives me hope is not only the fact Gorden Murray has been involved, but also the fact these cars are being introduced soley because the ACO want to return to cool looking protoypes in the mold of Group C/GT1, not safety/cost inspired changes.

Reading a translation it looks like the cars will have a minimum width at the base of the cockpit, and be a little taller. Aside from that the cockpit has to be a certain volume, but otherwise it's upto the designer to craft an asthetically pleasing cockpit shape.

You could have a squarish cockpit shape like the CLR, or dome like shape as seen on the Toyota GT-ONE, both of which are much larger than the 908.

[minimangler]

I love the 908 though, the "fighter jet" cockpit is beautiful. Oh well, all good things end sometime.

[TheNewBob]

I'm just pleased the F1-style noses are set to disappear. The 908, nice as it is already, would look so much better without that hideous raised nose - it just doesn't look right on a coupe, suits the R10 much better.

[bil588]

Mazda Furai concept shows the future?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/au...aiconcept.html

http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/rotary/

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by bil588

Mazda Furai concept shows the future?

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/au...aiconcept.html

http://www.mazda.com/mazdaspirit/rotary/

The front end is some where between hideous and bizarre but overall not too bad.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by bil588

Mazda Furai concept shows the future?

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102678

[ger80]

News about the 2010 regulations? I am not sure, but there are many new project atm, maybe we will see the 2010 regulations not in 2010?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by ger80

News about the 2010 regulations? I am not sure, but there are many new project atm, maybe we will see the 2010 regulations not in 2010?

It has been suggested that the "2010 regulations" quietly disappeared.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It has been suggested that the "2010 regulations" quietly disappeared.

Well, but the ACO has to clearify the situation urgently from my point of view.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ger80

Well, but the ACO has to clearify the situation urgently from my point of view.

Why? The manufactures did not want the coupes only, and wasn't the 2010 Coupe idea just an idea? not hard and fast as in "it will be done"??

If some small constructor builds a coupe, it could still be homolgated to ACO standards. or if Lola's coupe is really built it could still be homologated.

IMO the likelyhood of any real new constructor coming into world class sports car racing, is not going to happen. Not saying some manufacture as in Nissan or Toyota, companies that have the funds to do so, but some no name or unknown company.

Look at the problems Spyker is having? Jaguar, not likely, Korreg ( Sp?) do they build enough cars?, That new Spanish prototype named after the Spanish State, not likley. Many ppl and companies have big dreams ( heck we all do) but getting a car from drawing board ( CAD ) to Le Mens is a different story.

Any company that is really serieos could by a chassie to start with then develop their own, aka Acura.

[JAG]

I think the point is the coupe move is happening naturally with most, if not all, new P1 chassis likely to be coupes, partly due to looks, but also the fact they apparently have a slight performance advantage, in terms of aero and placing the driver lower in the cockpit.

P2 was always going to allow open cars.

Not sure what you're saying about the Lola, Espislon and presumably Dome. All are either constructed, or well on the way to being so, and will be at Le Mans 2008.

I'd also expect any new 2009 car from Acura, Aston Martin, GM, ORECA, even Creation to be a coupe.

IMO, ORECA and Lola are going to swallow up the majority if the P1 customer markt , leaving room only for major manufactuers customer cars.

Long term I can eventually see the likes of Pescarolo, Radical, Creation and Zytek concentrate on supplying P2 chassis.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Long term I can eventually see the likes of Pescarolo, Radical, Creation and Zytek concentrate on supplying P2 chassis.

Edit, always on the lookout for manufactuer funding to build a P1.

It's yet to be seen if Creations AIM funding, or Epsillons reported strong financing, is sufficient to compete with major car maufactuers and large, experienced, racecar constructors like Lola/ORECA in P1.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

Not sure what you're saying about the Lola, Espislon and presumably Dome. All are either constructed, or well on the way to being so, and will be at Le Mans 2008.

Cool, if the teams qualify and get an invite.

[JAG]

The Dome factory will be in for RFH, Lola will be with a current team, while the ACO will always welcome a well funded project like Epsillon, not least so they can tap into the Iberian market.

Lucchini, Spyker, Morgan and Pilbeam have all be invited to add variety to the grid, despite lacklustre performances.

[gwyllion]

We confirmed that the ACO do plan closed prototypes in the long term, but probably won’t introduce them as compulsory in 2010 to give the R10 and 908s a longer life.

source: http://www.sportscarpros.com/cottonb...ng/default.htm

[deggis]

I have never suspected that what said above, but I think what most people are wondering is that are the "design cues from production models" still part of the (long-term) plan?

[The Badger]

Wasnt that idea dropped a short time back ?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Wasnt that idea dropped a short time back ?

Well contrary to what some have put forth, no it has not been dropped! It is still in negotiation/talks between the ACO/Mfg's.
link

1st paragraph of the last section.


L.P.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Well contrary to what some have put forth, no it has not been dropped! It is still in negotiation/talks between the ACO/Mfg's.
link

1st paragraph of the last section.

Nice link

I've been updating this section in wikipedia LMP article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Mans...ans_Prototypes

That should be pretty much all the info I've gathered during the past months, have I missed something? If someone is familiar with wikipedia and you have something that's not yet mentioned there, please contribute

[deggis]

Already posted here but lets post this here too, because this is quite interesting:

Interview with Peugeot's Bruno Famin:

http://endurance-info.com/article.php?sid=5151&thold=0

Google translated to English (it's quite bad, but understandable):

http://translate.google.com/translat...51%26thold%3D0

"Yes, on this issue, we are very close to Audi, Porsche and Acura. We are therefore working together with the ACO on the topic of prototypes for the future. It is through consultation that we have a better chance to hear us. What we do not understand is why we should go back to the time of 962. On the contrary, we believe that we must use a place left vacant by the F1 in terms of technology. There is a niche to take… Our pilots are the first to tell us that these cars are very exciting to drive, very close to the sensations of F1. Why take another route now? Especially at a time when manufacturers are launching closed LM P1: Lola, or Euskadi Dome. Why any break? We must reach a consensus. And it is true that on this issue there, we have some common ground with most of our competitors."

Obviously he knows a lot more about ACO's plans than anyone of us, which makes this little bit confusing especially when he mentions the 962 (should not take everything literally of course). I wonder what the manufacturers then want because it's obvious that current formulae in the past years hasn't really addressed enough interest in the "big players" other than Audi and Pug (plus Acura, but I won't count Porsche in as long as it has no plans for P1).

[JAG]

The 2010 coupe plans were quietly dropped, reportedly, at Peugeots insisitence.

The 962 reference maywell be with regards to the shape of the cars, as the ACO have always said any new P1 class would be based on the chassis/technology of current car's, with the ero being the only major deviation.

Whatever the major manufactuers push for, that's what we'll get.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

The 2010 coupe plans were quietly dropped, reportedly, at Peugeots insisitence.

On what you base that statement? The quote from Daniel Poissenot (in the link few posts above) suggests more likely postponing.

[Hugewally]

'Indefinite' postponement - dropped

Toemato - tomato

[JAG]

Originally Posted by deggis

On what you base that statement? The quote from Daniel Poissenot (in the link few posts above) suggests more likely postponing.

There were never any regs in the first place, just a general desire to move to coupes, which is already happening.

[Félix]

"Yes, on this issue, we are very close to Audi, Porsche and Acura. We are therefore working together with the ACO on the topic of prototypes for the future. It is through consultation that we have a better chance to be heard. What we do not understand is why we should go back to the time of 962s. On the contrary, we believe that we must use a place left vacant by the F1 in terms of technology. There is a niche to take… Our pilots are the first to tell us that these cars are very exciting to drive, very close to the sensations of F1. Why take another route now? Especially at a time when manufacturers are launching closed LM P1: Lola, or Euskadi Dome. Why break it all? We must reach a consensus. And it is true that on this issue there, we have some common ground with most of our competitors."

(I corrected a few oddities in the translation but I'm surprised it came off that well from an online translator)

There you have it, all the manufacturers are not so happy to go back to more basic rules to please the ACO. The ACO still wants things to change (mainly to suit the manufacturers) and also because of lap speed limitations and aesthetic preferences. The rules might evolve with a few technical adjustments along with accomodations for hybrid cars and other interesting technologies rather than making the current cars completely obsolete. This would make no sense for privateers and even the manufacturers are now complaining. I guess Oreca will be some of the first to know because they are looking at building an all new car very soon.

Now, I feel like addressing the most common complaints about today's cars (because they sound somewhat stupid to me!):
-The raised nose. It is a technical choice and NOT an aesthetic one to look like F1s. It was first used at the beginning of the 90s in F1. The advantage it provides is that the crash-box (which has to be strong and big enough to get through crash tests) does not interfere with the wing surface. Instead of having two wings either side of a box you have a complete wing that is much bigger and that generates more downforce because the airflow behind it is not disrupted by the crashbox. For prototypes, replace wing with splitter. The solution has now appeared on lower formulas, and even on new DPs because it is better for performance. Now, even if you restrict it, everybody will still be looking for ways to achieve the advantages of a high nose and some will still complain about the looks. Just let technology happen freely!

-The road-car look. Tell me what would keep the manufacturers from using more cues from their road cars with the current regs? Audi, Peugeot and Acura certainly had their stylists involved at some point because choices in the headlights and other details have been made for solely cosmetic reasons on all these cars. If they wanted to do more, they could look at what Cadillac did at the back of its LMP02 for example. Now if you mandate squarier surfaces on the car to integrate road car-like elements, you will lose on the technical side and the new solutions used are not gonna be much better than what you see now because the rest of the car is still going to look like a racecar. A prototype is a prototype!

-The idea of a wider or different roof/cockpit is also flying around often. Even with different minimum dimensions, safety and performance concerns still stay the same, dictating much of the look of the structure. The designers are still going to want the sidepods to be as low and small as possible; the cockpit section is always going to stick out of the rest of the body rather awkwardly and look too high or too wide or not wide enough. Now you can mandate all the dimensions round it... but wait it sounds like Grand-Am! The only thing I would personnaly change there would be to lower the top, which is always too many inches tall just because the regulations say so. (But tubs would have to be rebuilt for that ) It would probably restore the proportions. Place the wing lower and maybe even in a slightly penalizing place to restore the open/closed performance balance and there you go! The Peugeot certainly looked good enough for me at Sebring.