Grp C/Grp A/V8SC 'Where are they now?' continued...

[drbob]

Originally Posted by Camaroz

Last I knew, Dennis Running still had the RX7.

Unfortunately the car no longer exists. I researched it some time ago and spoke to the NZ owner. I will find my material on my research and post up something more about it

[rogered1]

As Camaroz Says , as far as i know Running still has it
Can see now reason why its not still around.
However you could argue that not much of it sans the body still remains as per group c
It cam out to nz around 1986ish and ran in gpc spec
then thougholyy rebuilt to the RX8
Fairly significant car in that guise during the second half of the 80s

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by drbob

Unfortunately the car no longer exists. I researched it some time ago and spoke to the NZ owner. I will find my material on my research and post up something more about it

Unless the car has been chopped up, the last images I saw the RX7 still retained the roof, A and C pillars, sills, the forward and main roll cage hoops, (I would have to check period reference but the full cage appears to be period), plenum and about 70% of the firewall/front skirts. The images don't show all detail but it appears the hatch frame and possibly rear panel are still intact. It would be a job to rebuild the car but not impossible. That would be the preference to a re-shell or losing the car!

[rogered1]

http://www.nbphotography.co.nz/index.php/navcars
there is a picture of an orange rx7 with diff specs on the door
this is the car fairly recently and as it most likly still is

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by rogered1

http://www.nbphotography.co.nz/index.php/navcars
there is a picture of an orange rx7 with diff specs on the door
this is the car fairly recently and as it most likly still is

That would be it.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by rogered1

http://www.nbphotography.co.nz/index.php/navcars
there is a picture of an orange rx7 with diff specs on the door
this is the car fairly recently and as it most likly still is

If that's 'it' (or what remains of it!) then the roll cage is not period as the front section runs parallel with the A pillar & through the top of the dash, where as the original alloy Jonespeed cage avoided the dash completely.

This is one way you can tell it's the same car in all the period photos with it's multiple colour schemes from 1982 to 84.....Darrel Lea > Seiko > Darrel Lea > BF Goodrich > State/Ch 10 > WB1.


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[David Towe]

Oooops, wrong thread.

[rogered1]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

If that's 'it' (or what remains of it!) then the roll cage is not period as the front section runs parallel with the A pillar & through the top of the dash, where as the original alloy Jonespeed cage avoided the dash completely.

This is one way you can tell it's the same car in all the period photos with it's multiple colour schemes from 1982 to 84.....Darrel Lea > Seiko > Darrel Lea > BF Goodrich > State/Ch 10 > WB1.


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Pretty sure thats the correct car.
Came to NZ around 1985 by Simon wills dad
Ran in group c trim the first year
then Full BIG DOLLAR rebuild to sports sedan
Then to Dennis Running.
So only on its third owner now.
Its Never been "missing" since its been in nz
It also ran in black TV 3 and Mobil livery. with wills

[rogered1]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/southspeed/4825668029/
http://www.flickriver.com/groups/131...0/pool/random/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/southspeed/4826277316/

Few more shots, as it was best known

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

If that's 'it' (or what remains of it!) then the roll cage is not period as the front section runs parallel with the A pillar & through the top of the dash, where as the original alloy Jonespeed cage avoided the dash completely.

This is one way you can tell it's the same car in all the period photos with it's multiple colour schemes from 1982 to 84.....Darrel Lea > Seiko > Darrel Lea > BF Goodrich > State/Ch 10 > WB1.


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OPF, Barry's car had a steel cage and was secured (bolted by plates) to the A pillar. I agree that the forward legs did clear the dash.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by rogered1

Pretty sure thats the correct car.
Came to NZ around 1985 by Simon wills dad
Ran in group c trim the first year
then Full BIG DOLLAR rebuild to sports sedan
Then to Dennis Running.
So only on its third owner now.
Its Never been "missing" since its been in nz
It also ran in black TV 3 and Mobil livery. with wills

"Full BIG DOLLAR rebuild to sports sedan" (+ renaming it an Rx-8!) would suggest it's Group C DNA is all but gone. Were the original Group C components saved or stored?

The photos show that not much remains of the only 'non Moffat' Rx-7 to claim an ATCC victory.


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[ROTATN]

Do any of you knowledgeable OZ people know the local history of the car?

As in was it built by Barry Jones/Jonespeed using MFR parts, or was it a factory supplied car that was then maintained by them. Anyone able to shed some light?

I get the impression very little remains of the Group C parts, looks like its 5 stud wheels now too so perhaps struts, diff etc all but gone.

would be a very big & costly job to return it to its correct spec

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by ROTATN

Do any of you knowledgeable OZ people know the local history of the car?

As in was it built by Barry Jones/Jonespeed using MFR parts, or was it a factory supplied car that was then maintained by them. Anyone able to shed some light?

I get the impression very little remains of the Group C parts, looks like its 5 stud wheels now too so perhaps struts, diff etc all but gone.

would be a very big & costly job to return it to its correct spec

If the original parts can't be sourced then it's impossible. Even so it sounds like the sports sedan build saw brakes, rotors, hubs, engine mounts & fire wall fabrication for V8, radiator, rear end, roll cage, transmission, wheels, panels, instrumentation.......& on & on.

Was built by Jonespeed (could have been his Series 1 upgraded to S2 specs in '82), Barry did a lot of fabrication & engine building for other privateers as well. Although his was natuarally the fastest out of them all, despite running it on very limited funds for the most part.

When Bob Morris got hold of it in '84, he showed it's true potential with many wins in a short space of time. Not only winning the Oran Park ATCC round (with a standard 5 speed box) but also being the only non 'Peter Stuyvesant' Rx to make Hardie's Heroes.

In it's prime....
http://youtu.be/IqwrQYwMjiU


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[drbob]

I have been trying to find my notes of my conversation with Dennis Running from a few years ago. I wanted to look at them before posting. Haven't found them yet.From recollection Dennis told me that when he got the car there were very liitle Group C parts. The car was severely damaged by fire when he had it and he re-shelled it. What I don't recall clearly is whether the car was destroyed or he used some body parts for the re-build. (the former I think). In any event he built a car that was effectively a new sports sedan with no resemblance to a Group C RX7.
I also have some good photos of it which show that Barry Jones car is gone forever. I will keep looking for the photos and notes.

OPF the Goodrich car was not the Jones car.

[rogered1]

the fire is interesting, i never knew that.
And that could there for have a bearing on how you look at it
Be interesting to here more about this

The panels from memory were fabriacted alloy and still appear the same as per when wills had it, and would possibly be difficult to replicate.

I think this was the 1st RX7 in aust and displayed at the motorshow, prior to being made a racer

It was origionally rebuilt in conjuction with tony marsh (marsh motorsport).
I would guess that there would be no consideration of it being an ex Groupc car at that stage.
The brief, i guess, would have been NZ best sports sedan
I would assume that it would have been stripped and all the parts scatted to the 4 corners.

From memory, 350 chev, jerico? 9" group a 330x32 brakes and rotors etc etc etc.
Later even an extension in the wheel base.
This was one of the quicker cars in nz prior to the import of US trans am cars.

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by drbob

OPF the Goodrich car was not the Jones car.

For the 1983 Castrol 400 & JH 1000, Barry ran his car in the full BF Goodrich colour scheme. Basically his lack of funds for tyres was taken care of by the deal, however it obviously meant he had to run on the company's T/A Radials, reducing his outright chances.

At the final '83 AEC round in Adelaide, the car was still painted black & white, although back on Dunlop slicks & he finished an impressive 3rd behind Brock & Masterton.

In 1983, the other 'Goodrich' Rx-7 was in P & O colours. (yours)

RE: The Wills/Running 'Rx-8' - if it's a re shell, then case closed.


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[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by Oran Park Forever

For the 1983 Castrol 400 & JH 1000, Barry ran his car in the full BF Goodrich colour scheme. Basically his lack of funds for tyres was taken care of by the deal, however it obviously meant he had to run on the company's T/A Radials, reducing his outright chances.

At the final '83 AEC round in Adelaide, the car was still painted black & white, although back on Dunlop slicks & he finished an impressive 3rd behind Brock & Masterton.

In 1983, the other 'Goodrich' Rx-7 was in P & O colours. (yours)

RE: The Wills/Running 'Rx-8' - if it's a re shell, then case closed.


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The "original" BFG car was Gerry Burgess that had mainly Jonespeed components and later as the P&O car had Jim Downing and Roger Manderville sourced Mazda Factory parts.

The original BFG deal was with Barry but then Alan Jones fronted with the SEIKO funds and on Barry's advice we shifted the BFG program to Burgess. For '83 the BFG program included Rod Millen who was BFG supported in the US.

I didn't know that the Wills/Running car had been fire damaged then re-shelled. Shame that!

[drbob]

OPF you are of course quite right about the Jones / Millen BFG car. I was narrowly thing about my car - aplologies

[Camaroz]

Hi All,

I currently own two Group ‘C’ Australian Touring Cars from 1980, the Marlboro Holden Dealer Team (MHDT) VB Commodore (1980 ATCC winner) and the MHDT VC Commodore (1980 Bathurst Winner). I will reference these cars as Car 1 and Car 2.

Over the past years I have spent countless hours establishing the authenticity of both of these cars so that they are presented in as close to original condition as is possible.

I have been able to establish a clear line of history for both cars, their racing histories and chain of ownership demonstrating to me that vehicles I purchased for restoration are undisputedly authentic (see below).

As with many historic race cars, there are always stories, innuendo, he said-she said, rumors, supposed little known facts etc, from both dubious and respected sources that, unfortunately, more than often leads to misinformation becoming fact or folklore.

That is not to say that there is no other information out there. There well could be!

Therefore, I ask that if any person has any information or detail, be it supportive or contradictory to the authenticity of my cars, that they please let me know as soon as possible, either on the Forum, by email or hard mail (P.O.Box 5030, Studfield. 3152). Sometime before the end of May would be appreciated.

I also refer those interested to the document “The Case of Old Bentley Number One” - http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html which is conclusive as regards “authenticity” of Historic Vehicles. It is a good read.

To me, my two vehicles represent a very important and respected part of Australian motor racing history so they have to be right!

Best regards, Rowan Harman.

Car 1.

1979. First built as the prototype VB Commodore Group C by the MHDT.
1980. VB. Brock. ATCC, Brock/Harvey CRC 300. VB. Harvey, Adelaide Enduro.
1980. VC. Moffat, Sandown. Harvey/Harrop, Bathurst. Sold to Benson-Brown.
1981. VC. Benson-Brown ATCC. Benson-Brown/Rogers Bathurst. Damaged.
1981/82. Repaired as VH, later back to VC, then VH for Enduro’s. Benson Brown ATCC, Benson-Brown/C. O’Brien Sandown/Bathurst.
1982/83. Rebuilt using new VH shell. Benson-Brown ATCC, Benson Brown/Rogers, Sandown/Bathurst.
1984. Sold to Keogh, Northern Territory Team car, Stack/Clift/Keogh, Sandown/Bathurst.
1985. Converted to VK Group A. Keogh ATCC. Sold to Ray Ellis. Ellis/McLure Sandown/Bathurst.
1986. Ellis ATCC. Ellis/Baily, Sandown/Bathurst.
1987. Ellis ATCC. Ellis built a new VL, (the VL now owned by Mark Taylor – Qld). Car 1 partially converted to VL “show car”.
1987 – 2003. Car 1 in storage.
2003. Purchased by Rowan Harman.

Car 2.

1980. Second MHDT Commodore built. VB. Brock, Adelaide. VC. Brock, Sandown. Brock/Richards, Bathurst.
1981. Brock ATCC. Harvey/Schuppan, Sandown/Bathurst.
1982. MHDT
1983. Sold to Keogh. Keogh ATCC, Sandown. Keogh/Leonard, Bathurst.
1984. Keogh ATCC. Keogh/Shiel, Bathurst/Sandown.
1985. Sold to Burgman/Stevens.
1985/86. Sold to East. Converted to VK.
1987. Sold to Blackney
1988. Converted to AUSCAR. Blackney, AUSCAR, 1988 – 1992.
1992/93. Sold to Jones.
1994/95. Jones AUSCAR Sportsman. Damaged at the Thunderdome Nov 95.
1995. Rebuilt into new shell.
1995/96. Jones AUSCAR Sportsman.
1996/2009. Jones.
2009. Purchased by Rowan Harman.

ENDS.

[david5]

As both of the cars have been reshelled, how are they to be considered the cars they were before the reshells ?

[CooperS79]

Originally Posted by david5

As both of the cars have been reshelled, how are they to be considered the cars they were before the reshells ?

My thoughts exactly!!!!!!!

[Camaroz]

Originally Posted by david5

As both of the cars have been reshelled, how are they to be considered the cars they were before the reshells ?

The answer is in the "Motorsport History" files here on 10/10ths.

[rogered1]

I must admit to always having a chuckle when this subject comes up.

Heres a hypothetical.

Mclaren turns up for the Aust GP and runs chassis 123.
At the end of the season its still running chassis 123.
though out the season it has had 5 drive train changes,, 54 wheels , 8 different aero changes, a crash., and an updated tub.
All changes, as part of running the car.
So the only part from AU GP is the steering wheel. however its still chassis 123

Contiinuous tracable history is the closest you can possibly get to the origional car short of buying chassis 123 as it crossed the line at the au gp

Thats is how i look at it

[Oran Park Forever]

Originally Posted by rogered1

I must admit to always having a chuckle when this subject comes up.

Heres a hypothetical.

Mclaren turns up for the Aust GP and runs chassis 123.
At the end of the season its still running chassis 123.
though out the season it has had 5 drive train changes,, 54 wheels , 8 different aero changes, a crash., and an updated tub.
All changes, as part of running the car.
So the only part from AU GP is the steering wheel. however its still chassis 123

Contiinuous tracable history is the closest you can possibly get to the origional car short of buying chassis 123 as it crossed the line at the au gp

Thats is how i look at it

That scenario is perfectly fine, as the changes & mods were done by the same team & continued to race during the same year of competition.

It's only when 'chassis 123' gets junked years down the track by new owners that the scenario turns all shades of grey.


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[paydirt]

If I were a potential Historic-racecar-buyer, & the seller was telling me that the original shell was at the scrap yard, why would I be offering anything other than scrap yard prices?