FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[Mike Bell]

Not wishing to derail this thread, but an example (today at Spa) of Duddha’s lighting comments....

[john ruston]

As most of the GT40’s are copies and all sorts of things are tried to ensure they go quicker lights are the least of the changes.
Best lighting was the fancy stuff from the red bull road car fixed to a Bugatti 35 in last years LMC.

[Gerard C]

Mike I see better what you mean… Its so good when you shed light on the subject…

[Oneball]

What is allowed with regards to engine blocks and HTPs? Despite having been involved in historic motorsport for 25 years I've been banging my head against a brick wall for weeks trying to find an answer to this question.

Can I use a later engine block that has a different casting number if it is the same in terms of spec, material, dimensions and manufacturer as that originally fitted?

[terence]

Originally Posted by Oneball

What is allowed with regards to engine blocks and HTPs? Despite having been involved in historic motorsport for 25 years I've been banging my head against a brick wall for weeks trying to find an answer to this question.

Can I use a later engine block that has a different casting number if it is the same in terms of spec, material, dimensions and manufacturer as that originally fitted?

In short No. Same period.

[Oneball]

Originally Posted by terence

In short No. Same period.

That’s what I always thought, but every C3 Corvette I’ve looked at has a non period block, the big block McLaren I looked at didn’t even have a block from the original manufacturer let alone a period one and there’s loads of Jags with non period iron blocks same can be said for BMWs and Chevrons.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Oneball

That’s what I always thought, but every C3 Corvette I’ve looked at has a non period block, the big block McLaren I looked at didn’t even have a block from the original manufacturer let alone a period one and there’s loads of Jags with non period iron blocks same can be said for BMWs and Chevrons.

As I say, some do cheat! But for papers, you need to use a period casting number or provide evidence that the engine block dimentionally and structurally complies with period. For GM/Corvette engines, it's known that some period blocks are no longer available but equivalent can be find through GM even though it is now sold for different application and with different casting numbers.

[Mike Bell]

Am I right in thinking that there are the odd engine types that AppK allows an alternative block to be used? 1275cc 'A' Series, BDA and FVC spring to mind without checking......

[Oneball]

You can use the 1300GT a-aeries block instead of a Cooper S block and there's some Abarth engines that you can interchange. App K specifically quotes these but the blocks referred to are actually significantly different to the correct period items.

Originally Posted by Duddha

As I say, some do cheat! But for papers, you need to use a period casting number or provide evidence that the engine block dimentionally and structurally complies with period. For GM/Corvette engines, it's known that some period blocks are no longer available but equivalent can be find through GM even though it is now sold for different application and with different casting numbers.

Thanks Duddha, do you know who I can speak to within the FIA to confirm what is acceptable? I've tried the contact email on the historic website but not had a reply.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Oneball

........

Thanks Duddha, do you know who I can speak to within the FIA to confirm what is acceptable? I've tried the contact email on the historic website but not had a reply.

would Nigel Edwards be the right person to start with?

[Oneball]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

would Nigel Edwards be the right person to start with?

When I spoke to the MSA they said it’d be up to the FIA but it might be worth a try.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Oneball

When I spoke to the MSA they said it’d be up to the FIA but it might be worth a try.

Nigel can get a question sent to the FIA, and you can ask too, here, now.

[Oneball]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Nigel can get a question sent to the FIA, and you can ask too, here, now.

Does the FIA have a list of accepted block casting numbers for a Corvette running in GTS22?

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Oneball

Does the FIA have a list of accepted block casting numbers for a Corvette running in GTS22?

Would that be for a C3 427ci. car from 68-69 as per Homologation 583? If so I think there are countless reference of blocks available for these cars and no we do not work with formal listings. Here there are possibilities of 427 ZL1 Alloy or Iron blocks I presume?

Basically there are countless numbers as there were truck, standard or even marine applications in some cases. 3782870 for an iron 4-bolt tall deck and 4.250 bored block I believe produced from 1968 to 1976 and 3946052 for a 427, 4.250 ZL-1 MkIV 1969 period block.

There are online database as well as books which are just about GM casting numbers and which most builders and/or specialist often refer to when submitting applications, or simply providing a copy of the record.

[Oneball]

Thanks, there was only one casting number used for the 69 to 70 iron block 427cu and 454cu Corvette and that was 3963512, these are difficult to get hold of especially this side of the Atlantic.

The tall deck blocks are only for trucks as they have a lower compression ratio.

So I could use a later block with a different casting number but I don't know of anyway to prove that these are exactly the same. If the FIA doesn't have a list I can't find a way to do this without building a car and applying for an HTP which could be pointless.

I've had my current historic race car for 25 years and it's becoming less and less fun, it just seems that nowadays there is a requirement to be stupidly rich so you can pay your specialist who knows someone and then you're able to run your McLaren with a modern Dart block or your Mini with a dog box.

Sorry for the rant but I've spent months chasing engine builders, not for advice, but to build me an engine but no one ever gets back to me, even after going to see them and I've just about given up on the idea. Same with other bits of Corvette. I've never come across a marque of car where the specialist are almost to a man completely unhelpful. I just don't get how people can turn down 10, 15 or 20 grands worth of work. Guess I should have got a Ford.

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by Duddha

As I say, some do cheat! But for papers, you need to use a period casting number or provide evidence that the engine block dimentionally and structurally complies with period. For GM/Corvette engines, it's known that some period blocks are no longer available but equivalent can be find through GM even though it is now sold for different application and with different casting numbers.

So Louis is a later 18V block acceptable in an MGB , TVR, Elva or only the earlier 18GA, GB, GG etc?

Thanks

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

So Louis is a later 18V block acceptable in an MGB , TVR, Elva or only the earlier 18GA, GB, GG etc?

Thanks

Nope, the engine block has to be period unless you prove that as an alternative it's in accordance with 3.6.7.1 which means dimensionally and structurally equal to the period one.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Oneball

Thanks, there was only one casting number used for the 69 to 70 iron block 427cu and 454cu Corvette and that was 3963512, these are difficult to get hold of especially this side of the Atlantic.

The tall deck blocks are only for trucks as they have a lower compression ratio.

So I could use a later block with a different casting number but I don't know of anyway to prove that these are exactly the same. If the FIA doesn't have a list I can't find a way to do this without building a car and applying for an HTP which could be pointless.

I've had my current historic race car for 25 years and it's becoming less and less fun, it just seems that nowadays there is a requirement to be stupidly rich so you can pay your specialist who knows someone and then you're able to run your McLaren with a modern Dart block or your Mini with a dog box.

Sorry for the rant but I've spent months chasing engine builders, not for advice, but to build me an engine but no one ever gets back to me, even after going to see them and I've just about given up on the idea. Same with other bits of Corvette. I've never come across a marque of car where the specialist are almost to a man completely unhelpful. I just don't get how people can turn down 10, 15 or 20 grands worth of work. Guess I should have got a Ford.

I would just say that relying on third parties to give an answer is not a way forward. If you buy the books and records of the GM castings, you will find your answer and possibly your needs.

The fact that an engine block is hard to find has never given a way around, which is different to total and proven non-availability.

[Oneball]

Originally Posted by Duddha

I would just say that relying on third parties to give an answer is not a way forward. If you buy the books and records of the GM castings, you will find your answer and possibly your needs.

The fact that an engine block is hard to find has never given a way around, which is different to total and proven non-availability.

I have the books and the casting numbers, I'm not relying on third parties, I've been researching this for months and have got nowhere close to a definitive answer. I hoped that maybe the FIA had a list of acceptable parts in the same as does for Lotus Elans for example.

I only signed up here as a last resort and was not just looking for an easy way out.

Thanks for your replies.

I will endeavour to source a period block, which I've also been trying to do all this time.

[zefarelly]

lotus elans are easy. . . . everythings available new . . . looks like original but just a bit better on the inside.

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

lotus elans are easy. . . . everythings available new . . . looks like original but just a bit better on the inside.

Presumably these parts have been identified by the FIA as being suitable, so there is a list of them?

In which case would it not be possible for the FIA to compile a list of original parts that are considered to be suitable - e.g. when an alternative casting number block is accepted for one car then it is added to the list?

I'm intrigued by how the process works/what research the FIA do, having been asked to prove the period use of rose joints on a car when there are other examples that already had FIA papers.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

So Louis is a later 18V block acceptable in an MGB , TVR, Elva or only the earlier 18GA, GB, GG etc?

Thanks

You have to demonstrate non-availability.

For GM castings, you have to understand they are the same but other applications and from same period. Basically another plant, marine, etc.

People have tried for Alfa and other cars but couldn't demonstrate unavailability.

[Duddha]

A big update on HTP and for everybody to be aware.

A new template was released last week to all national clubs and followed by an FIA Seminar held in Paris on the Friday of Retromobile for ASN staff but also registrars and so on. In total, we had over 70 people attending and 23 different nationalities which was a very good point.

All in all, the document will be implemented in the first half of 2020 and be mandatory to use from July onwards. Also developped aside are the new HTP Guidelines which we invite anyone interested to complete an Application or to understand the template to go through.

Here is the link

Any question, please let me know. Nothing really changes, just a more user friendly document, new picture format and specific requirements aimed at saving time in the application procedure.

[S griffin]

Ok thanks for this. Got to keep regulations up to date. Looks like it’s been a very productive meeting and it’s right to give time so everyone can get ready when they can.

So which type of historics will be most affected by this? Hope you guys keep up the good work

[one-two]

Well done Louis - greatly appreciate the increased communication and openness. Robert Barrie