IMSA Race TUSC Round 12: COTA

[Maelochs]

@Purist—Yes, a proper P2 tire (where in the (Dunlop) world could they find such a thing) would increase cornering speed, reduce braking distance, and possibly improve acceleration—but the big issues aren't those things, except acceleration, which apparently was imp[roved by adding 40 kg and heating up the DP tire at CotA.

The issue is still that if a DP can get ahead of a p2 it can generally stay there because of top end, which means the P2 cannot pass at the best passing zones (ends of long straights with tight corners) and cannot stay ahead on long straights if it gets by in low- or medium-speed corners (Which was demonstrated amply at Daytona and Sebring ... and every other race.)

Even on DP tires and with 40 kg extra the P2s could still pass on handling—if they could get close enough. The DP blocks the corner, forcing the P2 to lose momentum, then the DP charges off with its massive hp and torque, leaving the P2 stranded. A little extra grip isn't going to offset 150 bhp on corner exit, no matter how much of an advantage it would have been, had the P2 had a chance to enter the corner next to the DP.

That's the key: The P2 has to be able to catch the DP at corner entry and take whichever line the DP leaves, inside or outside, and drive around the DP—which it can do, on the Very rare occasion s that a P2 can hang with a DP up top to a corner.

If the P2 had more grip and less power and weight, it would have an even greater advantage in clean air—which means every time a P2 got ahead it would run away—exactly as we see now. Until a caution or a pit stop puts the P2 behind a DP, the P2 can just cruise into the distance unmolested.

Thing is, the P2 needs more torque to exit a corner on par with a DP, and more horsepower to hang with the DP down a straight. Give it those two things ... and P2s would be four seconds a lap faster like they were before the DPs got their power-and aero-upgrades.

Cornering speed is not the problem needing a solution—if it were P2s wouldn't need any adjustments, because they have always had a huge edge there. It is torque and power—both things the current power plants cannot reliably offer in greater quantities—which define the success/failure ratio of the two chassis types.

Shoot, the Oak would have won by almost a minute if Valiante hadn't spun the thing. The car was a second a lap faster at least, and in 75 laps ... And if the Oak had won by a minute, TUSC would have felt compelled to nerf-bat the Oak back to Special-Olympics performance levels.

Increasing the advantages it already has won't overcome the shortcomings (versus a DP) but it would make the margin of victory even more ridiculous if a P2 won.

Suppose the Oak gets ahead cleanly at Petit, manages to maneuver through traffic (where the DPs usually shine, comparatively) and wins by a huge margin. Can you imagine how crippled P2s would be at Daytona next January?

Right now the best hope TUSC has is for a P2 team to also run a DP and spin the leading DP in the final ten laps, so the team's P2 can win by a small margin.

[kyoung]

Maybe instead of trying to balance them they need to make two separate classes. It’s obvious no one is going to be happy with the one class and BoP no matter what it is. You have a better chance settling the Israeli-Palestinian hubbub.

[Purist]

The P2 engines aren't going to take much more power, and may not last Petit in current trim. I can't see the DP teams going with a sufficient power cut on the other side of things.

Also, it's not slow or medium-speed corners that I'm looking at, and it never was. This goes back to the LMP675s versus the LMP900s, and was most graphically illustrated by the Acuras and Porsches against the Audi R10. Remember, the R10 was around 900kg (maybe 915kg some years), with 750-hp, and 800+ft-lb of torque. Those ARX-01s and RS Spyders had up to 575-hp, and maybe, up to 400-ft-lb of torque, while running 800kg (2007) or 825kg (2008).

The P2s need tracks with a good number of high-speed corners, and enough of a handling advantage to use those corners. If a P2 could go around the outside of a DP through Turn 6 at Austin, without the aid of traffic bottling up the DP, that would be a game-changer. You're not going to be able to give the P2s "enough" power/torque, so you have to look at the other things you CAN do.

[CyberMotor]

Sorry, this was meant for another thread

[Jack Spratt]

The biggest issue the Ligier drivers had was losing the front downforce every time they came up upon a DP. The car understeered, they lifted and the DP took off like a scalded cat.

[Purist]

Kyoung, that won't work, because you will then no longer have one type of car in the "top class". As a consequence, the "less favored" type of car can be expected to disappear from the series altogether. You can't reasonably tell the P2s to just stick around anyway, when they can expect to be thrashed if they do. Sorry, but they're there in the first place with the intent of competing for overall wins. There's no point in staying on if that goes away, and is even formally codified into the rules.

[Speed-King]

Yeah that's why there are no P2s at Le Mans.... oh, wait.

[Rcz]

I think separating the class would be a good idea.

Both types of cars can still go for the overall win as well as a overall championship.

But can also be scored in their respected class type.



Dps are more like a ground effect car now so they don't loss much aero when there are in the back of another car. They also have a torque advantage, so they can beat a P2 car in acceleration.

But if you give P2 cars gripper tires, wouldn't you have to give the DP teams a chance to have gripper tired as well to be fair? And if that happen, would the DPs still be too strong?

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yeah that's why there are no P2s at Le Mans.... oh, wait.

Are you responding to Purist? If so, then this is a terrible analogy. P2s were never promised a shot at overall victory at Le Mans. In the WEC, P2s know their role. P2s in USCC were promised to be a part of the top class and compete for overall wins. Splitting the class now is unacceptable, especially when they were the faster cars before the DP upgrades.

Originally Posted by Rcz

I think separating the class would be a good idea.

Both types of cars can still go for the overall win as well as a overall championship.

But can also be scored in their respected class type.



Dps are more like a ground effect car now so they don't loss much aero when there are in the back of another car. They also have a torque advantage, so they can beat a P2 car in acceleration.

But if you give P2 cars gripper tires, wouldn't you have to give the DP teams a chance to have gripper tired as well to be fair? And if that happen, would the DPs still be too strong?

What's the point in separating the class if you still are going to BOP them to the same laptimes?

So DPs can have a torque advantage but P2s can't have a tire grip advantage?

[Maelochs]

The only reason P2 and DP "need" top be balanced is financial, not sporting. TUSC doesn't want to alienate major North American racing teams because those teams could be useful later on down the road--or could bring parts of the fan base to another series I know I'd watch wherever Muscle Milk (if the team still existed) and Dyson raced.)

Both DP and P2 teams expect (and their sponsors expect) top-rank billing. If either were relegated to a second-tier class, there might even be legal ramifications for the teams, and certainly serious financial ramifications.

As for what could be changed? Anything, depending on who was interested in spending the money. DPs were several seconds slower than P2s when each ran in optimized configuration in their respective series. DPs got a quarter-million-dollar-plus modernization which bankrupted some teams and gave the rest a huge edge over P2s. But ... DP teams were trapped. No one else wanted them so it was spend or don't race.

P2s could be allowed ERS, 8-liter engines, 80-liter fuel tanks ... whatever. Thing is, who is going to pay for it? P2 teams can (as has been proven) simply say "Screw this, we are going to WEC where they race real, modern sports cars as intended." So P2s cannot be transformed into quasi-P1s.

I think there is no way to "balance" the tweo any more than a football teams could be bal;anced with a basketball team ("The ball bounces funny on the torn-up grass!" "Yeah, well every time we try a running play we are called for traveling!") There simply is no common ground between the two types of chassis where each could give up a little to meet in the middle.

The P2 will always suck in traffic compared to a DP and the DP will always suck in cornering and braking compared to a P2. if the P2 is boosted enough or the DP hamstrung enough to be equal in traffic, the P2 would run away once it got in front.

The alternative is, the P2 can never get in front or stay there. Sure, it can pass in high-speed corners---but it has to catch the DP at corner entry, which it cannot do because of the DP's greater speed and power and acceleration out of the previous corner and down the previous straight.

CotA was the best balance for P2s and DPs with a DOP leading--it looked like the Ligier actually had a chance. Thing is, the Ligier was 1.5 seconds per lap faster---if it got in front, the contest would have been just as unequal and unfair, in the other direction.

No way to balance a boat and a car, or an airplane and a submarine. No way I can see to "balance" a P2 and a DP.

[Speed-King]

P2s were never promised a shot at overall victory at Le Mans. In the WEC, P2s know their role. P2s in USCC were promised to be a part of the top class and compete for overall wins. Splitting the class now is unacceptable, especially when they were the faster cars before the DP upgrades.

Which of the existing TUSC P2 teams bought their cars on the premise of being in the top class, though? Neither OAK nor ESM have a problem with playing second fiddle as evidenced by their WEC engagements. And I don't think competition for overall victory is very high on Mazda's agenda right now.

As for thd argument of the DPs having been slower once, well, they aren't anyone and I'd think that's a bigger issue for the fans than it is for the teams, anyhow. And the DP teams actually were the ones that bought their cars under the premises that they would go for overall victory.

[Rcz]

Yeah, I understand the series did base their BoP for financial reason.

This whole series is run by a shoestring budget dispite being owned by NASCAR.

The prize for winning a race is 100,000 right? I don't think that covers a weekend of racing at all.


I just believe separating the classes is the fairest way to go here.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by Rcz

The prize for winning a race is 100,000 right? I don't think that covers a weekend of racing at all.

LOL! My tire bill for last year at Petit in the GTC car was $40,000. That's in a spec tire class.

-mike

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Rcz

This whole series is run by a shoestring budget dispite being owned by NASCAR.

This is a point not much considered, but i think very accurate and very important.

Maybe NASCAR is unwilling to invest more until they see results, or maybe they are saving their big bucks for 2017 ... but I'd say, Invest now so there will be a later.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Maybe NASCAR is unwilling to invest more until they see results,

Well, in the world, we are seeing the top P1 WEC cars achieve incredible speeds while using 23% less fuel.

In America, sports car racing is spiraling downwards while the most inefficient cars are being favored and using more fuel.

Which results do you think they are looking at?

[jasonjessica09]

Thoughts on TUSC COTA race:

1. Ligier is good. This car is a force to be reckoned with. I think Oak will be the favorites to win the PLM.

2. A very very bad break for Porsche. The #911 car had the GTLM field covered. They were beating the entire LMPC field too. What the heck happened that broke their shaft? Some sort of contact?

3. Got to hand it to the Prototype class they were the most interesting race of the day for once. GTLM was rather disapointing from a competitive standpoint. Aside from the #911 the Vipers had the field covered.

4. What is wrong with P&M Corvette? They laid 3 eggs at COTA. #3, #4, and #65 all stunk plain and simple. Maybe its more than "BoP" they lost some sort of edge to them.

[Mike Hedlund]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

2. A very very bad break for Porsche. The #911 car had the GTLM field covered. They were beating the entire LMPC field too. What the heck happened that broke their shaft? Some sort of contact?

Without having watched on-board for the entire race, my guess is the curbs. The orange curbing is terribly hard on the drivetrain.. especially with aggressive drivers going to power over them. It caused havoc for many teams/cars...

-mike

[Danske]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

The orange curbing is terribly hard on the drivetrain.. especially with aggressive drivers going to power over them. It caused havoc for many teams/cars...

"So don't drive over them." -- Brian Till on the broadcast

[Purist]

They're not that visually apparent, certainly not from a distance, and there isn't grass behind the regular curbs to unconditionally discourage short-cutting. What do you expect to happen? Also, some of those orange curbs are in odd places, while other places that "ought to" have them don't.

When you make these things conditional or inconsistent, the drivers WILL push to, and beyond, the limits. They haven't been smacked down hard enough, every single time, to break the habit, so they keep doing it.

[Maelochs]

Well, the #911 was smacked down abo0ut as hard as possible ...

I don't blame the curbs ... drivers had enough practice time to know where they were, I think. It is more spirited driving and wanting to stretch the limits of track limits ... and not the best time for the #911 to do that, but Porscher paid the price.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Thoughts on TUSC COTA race:4. What is wrong with P&M Corvette? They laid 3 eggs at COTA. #3, #4, and #65 all stunk plain and simple. Maybe its more than "BoP" they lost some sort of edge to them.

Lost their edge, hmmm, won four races, AoP changed, back of the pack since. Yes we need a detective to figure this out. Corvette was never the fastest in qualifying, but they had good race setups and strategy to win with the balance they had. IMSA put a thumb on them that they can’t overcome with setups or strategy now, that’s all there is to it. Did you see the TUSC opening promo, Vettes and Vipers battling it out, that’s what IMSA thought they were going to have by giving Corvette Racing a little back; it didn’t work. WEC; Aston has always been fast because of the huge break they get, Porsches generous BoP have them where they want to be as well. We are now at the point where it’s a matter of who breaks or screws up first between Aston and Porsche with Ferrari to pick up the scraps if both fail. Corvette for the most part races one time in the WEC, and that is Lemans with the exception of this year’s race at CoTA. I don’t expect they will ever get a decent BoP again until they compete on a regular basis in the WEC or until IMSA and the ACO/FIA get some kind of unified rules package.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Well, the #911 was smacked down abo0ut as hard as possible ...

I don't blame the curbs ... drivers had enough practice time to know where they were, I think. It is more spirited driving and wanting to stretch the limits of track limits ... and not the best time for the #911 to do that, but Porscher paid the price.

See, Tilkedromes can still kill cars (but luckily in this instance didn't kill a driver while doing so)

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

LOL! My tire bill for last year at Petit in the GTC car was $40,000. That's in a spec tire class.

-mike

Ok, I knew racing was expensive... but... !

As always, thanks for weighing in with some real-world (can we use that term when talking about racing?) experience, Mike.

[Danathar]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

Thoughts on TUSC COTA race:

1. Ligier is good. This car is a force to be reckoned with. I think Oak will be the favorites to win the PLM.

2. A very very bad break for Porsche. The #911 car had the GTLM field covered. They were beating the entire LMPC field too. What the heck happened that broke their shaft? Some sort of contact?

3. Got to hand it to the Prototype class they were the most interesting race of the day for once. GTLM was rather disapointing from a competitive standpoint. Aside from the #911 the Vipers had the field covered.

4. What is wrong with P&M Corvette? They laid 3 eggs at COTA. #3, #4, and #65 all stunk plain and simple. Maybe its more than "BoP" they lost some sort of edge to them.

There are rumors from somebody at ESM that the DP owners are whispering in the series ear that the Ligier needs to be slowed down for Petit as a result of how well they did at COTA lap time wise in qualifying.

Take it with a grain of salt. I have no confirmation of this.

[Maelochs]

I won't take it with a grain of salt because logically it is a mountain of truth.

I have been belaboring this point lately--to be competitive during the race while behind a DP, a P2 needs to have a Huge advantage once it is in front of a DP. There is simply no way to be fair to both chassis types.

If I owned a DP I would be smart enough to see that any P2, once it gets in front, can easily drive away unless traffic or yellow flags stop it. (I don't own a DP and I am smart enough to see that--or at least I think I am.)

Therefore I would want every P2 slowed. Simple.